The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
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03-06-2014, 02:05 PM
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
(03-06-2014 01:51 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  
(03-06-2014 09:26 AM)Mozart Link Wrote:  Since atheism is about being logical, I am just trying to have a logical reasoning discussion. I believe that my statement is logical in saying that we should value who we are as people and that we should have an elevated sense of value and worth towards our and everyone else's personality regardless of the fact that this life itself says otherwise (again, life saying that we are just insignificant creatures who are not worthy of a perfect life and immortality). If anyone can give me a logical reason that opposes this, I would be interested to hear it and attempt to logically reason with it.

You are not being logical. I've noticed the following fallacies in just some of your posts: straw man, argument from ignorance, special pleading.

If anything, you are using common sense. The only problem is, that common says does not always comport with logic or reality. I've noticed that many theists seem to believe that common sense and logic are the same thing.

But onto your bigger point.

Human beings place value and worth on others personality because we are social animals. We evolved traits such as altruism, cooperation, kin selection, reciprocity, as survival mechanism. We place worth and value on each others lives because we evolved to.

Earth and the universe in general does not care about our lives. If an asteroid collided with earth and ended all life, do you think the universe would care?
The universe may not care about us, but why would you allow that to dictate a lesser sense of value and worth towards yourself and others in saying that we are not worthy of what this universe can't give us? Again, it is in fact lesser and demeaning because just the act of perceiving someone as not worthy of a perfect life of immortality is, in fact, having a lesser sense of human value and worth no matter how much value and worth you have otherwise. Because if you had the best possible sense of value and worth possible, you would obviously view yourself and others as being worthy of these things.

Therefore, this is the reason why I feel I am being logical.
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03-06-2014, 02:23 PM
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
(03-06-2014 02:05 PM)Mozart Link Wrote:  The universe may not care about us, but why would you allow that to dictate a lesser sense of value and worth towards yourself and others in saying that we are not worthy of what this universe can't give us? Again, it is in fact lesser and demeaning because just the act of perceiving someone as not worthy of a perfect life of immortality is, in fact, having a lesser sense of human value and worth no matter how much value and worth you have otherwise.

Who is "allowing" this? Certainly not me or most people I know. Must be just you. Perhaps you influence yourself, alone. Many do. Shy

Again, what do you mean by immortality? I asked previously but you did not reply.

(03-06-2014 02:05 PM)Mozart Link Wrote:  Because if you had the best possible sense of value and worth possible, you would obviously view yourself and others as being worthy of these things.

I do view myself and others as being worthy of these things. I'm not seeing an issue here, man. Drinking Beverage

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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03-06-2014, 02:24 PM
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
"Mozart Link"...................

I think your username says alot about you.

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03-06-2014, 03:49 PM
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
(03-06-2014 09:26 AM)Mozart Link Wrote:  Since atheism is about being logical, I am just trying to have a logical reasoning discussion. I believe that my statement is logical in saying that we should value who we are as people and that we should have an elevated sense of value and worth towards our and everyone else's personality regardless of the fact that this life itself says otherwise (again, life saying that we are just insignificant creatures who are not worthy of a perfect life and immortality). If anyone can give me a logical reason that opposes this, I would be interested to hear it and attempt to logically reason with it.

Ummmm. This is just silly. First of all, just because someone is an atheist doesn't mean they don't have any self worth towards themselves or anyone else. Second of all, I have no desire to live eternally as that would be the most IMperfect thing ever. If one really looks at immortality logically then you're looking at living a zillion-billion-trillion plus a trillion-billion-zillion more years. I can't think of anything more horrible and off putting than being stuck in the mire of immortality. Ick. You theists should heed the saying "be careful what you wish for, it just might come true."

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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03-06-2014, 03:54 PM
The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
(03-06-2014 01:15 PM)Mozart Link Wrote:  
(03-06-2014 01:00 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Because time, like money or anything else, has diminishing marginal utility. And believing that you have unlimited time diminishes the value of the present. Your belief in immortality is what devalues life.
People might be more motivated to get things done knowing that this is the only life they have, but you can get an infinite amount of things done if you lived forever. And whether or not you decide to be lazy and not get things done knowing that you are living a life of immortality is only a matter of personal choice. Living an immortal life does not have to take any of your motivation at all in getting things done or even in doing things for that matter.

Also, it is irrational and false to say that your life now has less value if you're immortal because it is now a life filled with eternal joy (eternal value).

(03-06-2014 01:13 PM)Mathilda Wrote:  How do we determine what "worthy" means?
The same way that we determine feelings of worth and value towards others in helping others and such is worthy.

Bill gates donates billions to charity annually, saving millions of lives. However he is in the Christian view, worthy of eternal torture and agony.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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03-06-2014, 03:56 PM
The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
(03-06-2014 02:05 PM)Mozart Link Wrote:  
(03-06-2014 01:51 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  You are not being logical. I've noticed the following fallacies in just some of your posts: straw man, argument from ignorance, special pleading.

If anything, you are using common sense. The only problem is, that common says does not always comport with logic or reality. I've noticed that many theists seem to believe that common sense and logic are the same thing.

But onto your bigger point.

Human beings place value and worth on others personality because we are social animals. We evolved traits such as altruism, cooperation, kin selection, reciprocity, as survival mechanism. We place worth and value on each others lives because we evolved to.

Earth and the universe in general does not care about our lives. If an asteroid collided with earth and ended all life, do you think the universe would care?
The universe may not care about us, but why would you allow that to dictate a lesser sense of value and worth towards yourself and others in saying that we are not worthy of what this universe can't give us? Again, it is in fact lesser and demeaning because just the act of perceiving someone as not worthy of a perfect life of immortality is, in fact, having a lesser sense of human value and worth no matter how much value and worth you have otherwise. Because if you had the best possible sense of value and worth possible, you would obviously view yourself and others as being worthy of these things.

Therefore, this is the reason why I feel I am being logical.

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You assume an atheistic worldview undervalues human life because of the lack of an afterlife.

That doesn't make any sense at all.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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03-06-2014, 03:56 PM
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
Mozart Link, are you just having trouble coming to terms with the idea of death and aging?

You're essentially speaking for yourself with this argument. Some people find it difficult even to muster up sufficient motivation to make it through their normal life span.
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03-06-2014, 04:07 PM
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
(03-06-2014 02:05 PM)Mozart Link Wrote:  The universe may not care about us, but why would you allow that to dictate a lesser sense of value and worth towards yourself and others in saying that we are not worthy of what this universe can't give us? Again, it is in fact lesser and demeaning because just the act of perceiving someone as not worthy of perfect life of immortality is, in fact, having a lesser sense of human value and worth no matter how much value and worth you have otherwise. Because if you had the best possible sense of value and worth possible, you would obviously view yourself and others as being worthy of these things.

I don't let anything to dictate my value and worth. Where did I say that?

I value myself, and I think I have worth. As well as the value and worth of others.

From the perspective of a human being, I value other human beings. From the perspective of the universe, human beings have no value.

What 'perfect life of immortality' are you referring to'?


Quote:Therefore, this is the reason why I feel I am being logical.

I really don't think the word 'logic' means what you think it means. Seriously.
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03-06-2014, 04:14 PM
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
(03-06-2014 04:07 PM)Simon Moon Wrote:  From the perspective of a human being, I value other human beings. From the perspective of the universe, human beings have no value.
But you are a human being--not the universe. Therefore, you should have the perspective of a human being and not the perspective of this universe.
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03-06-2014, 04:36 PM
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
(03-06-2014 06:48 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Also while we're at it ...

(03-06-2014 06:03 AM)Mozart Link Wrote:  We are not meant to live a life of perfect joy and freedom and are designed to practically be slaves of our own negative emotional responses to life's struggles.

There is no design and there is no meaning behind our existence. We just are.

It's like getting a sack full of pebbles of different sizes, shaking it and then saying that the smaller pebbles were meant to be at the bottom. No, they minimised available free energy.

how do you get an ought from an is?
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