The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
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03-06-2014, 06:17 PM
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
(03-06-2014 05:45 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  
(03-06-2014 05:01 PM)Mozart Link Wrote:  But I'm going to bring up my point again because it all comes down to this which is that just the act of perceiving someone as not worthy of a perfect life of immortality is, in fact, having a lesser sense of human value and worth no matter how much value and worth you have otherwise.

Anyone can perceive the "what if" that human beings are worthy of a perfect life of immortality, why do you think we have medicine? This is absolute nonsense.

(03-06-2014 05:01 PM)Mozart Link Wrote:  Because if you had the best possible sense of value and worth possible, you would obviously view yourself and others as being worthy of these things.

Are you kidding me? Secular people value human life more than you fuckers do. Have you completely forgotten about the crusades, the inquisition, the holocaust, and things like this:

http://mobile.news.com.au/world/europe/s...6939959324

You're practically foaming at the mouth at the thought of the next genocide you could commit, and idolize a genocidal maniac. What kind of conception of the "value of human life" is that?

[Image: 4y6uragu.jpg]

(03-06-2014 05:01 PM)Mozart Link Wrote:  Sure, not many atheists would confer meaning and value to immortality and perfection, but again,

Really? Source?

(03-06-2014 05:01 PM)Mozart Link Wrote:  just the act of perceiving that you're not worth it is obviously demeaning from the best possible sense of value and worth you can have.

You think your beliefs influence realty? You think no atheist is capable of indulging in the same fantasy you do and seeing any value inherent in it?

(03-06-2014 05:01 PM)Mozart Link Wrote:  This point I have made still logically stands and there has been no one so far to logically disprove this.

It doesn't have to be logically disproved. It's not logical.

And here's how much the devout value human life:

[Image: yha7uset.jpg]

The more religious a given group is, the higher the murder rate will be. Statistics show this repeatedly.

Not only that but atheist countries, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Japan and others have the lowest crime rates and the highest rate of happyness in the world. They donate more money per capita to poor countries. In the USA Atheist households have less domestic violence, there is more crime in the states that are more religious and less crime is less religious states. Atheists have a lower divorce rate. Atheist are less racist than theists, less anti-Semitic, more accepting of equal pay between the genders. Religious people are more supportive of their government to use torture.

Now, what were you saying about believing in god as motivation "to do more things in helping others" ?

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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03-06-2014, 06:46 PM
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
(03-06-2014 05:44 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(03-06-2014 05:40 PM)Mozart Link Wrote:  Immortality is perfection because your lifespan is perfect and there is no problems with it which is why you would live forever. Also, an eternal life would not devalue anything because you could either choose to be lazy and not do anything and feel less motivated knowing that this life is eternal, or you could feel empowered by it and use that empowerment to be motivated to do more things in helping others and yourself, resulting in feelings of even more empowerment for yourself and others (a positive vicious cycle of empowerment, enjoyment, and in doing more and more things for yourself and others).

Hey.

Bud.

Saying something does not establish something. Assertion is not substantiation.
Logic itself is the truth and speaks the truth regardless of what anyone's interpretation of something is. I believe that what I'm saying here is logical which means you have to give me a logical explanation as to why you disagree with what I just said in order for me to believe it.

Also, I am not referring to a belief in god and religion in saying all of these things--I am only saying these things in terms of human value alone.
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03-06-2014, 06:50 PM
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
(03-06-2014 06:46 PM)Mozart Link Wrote:  
(03-06-2014 05:44 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Hey.

Bud.

Saying something does not establish something. Assertion is not substantiation.
Logic itself is the truth and speaks the truth regardless of what anyone's interpretation of something is. I believe that what I'm saying here is logical which means you have to give me a logical explanation as to why you disagree with what I just said in order for me to believe it.

Also, I am not referring to a belief in god and religion in saying all of these things--I am only saying these things in terms of human value alone.

No, logic provides neither truth nor information.

A logical argument is only as good as its premises; if those are free floating, you have a pretty structure with no necessary connection to reality.

You want truth or knowledge, you need facts and evidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-06-2014, 06:56 PM
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
(03-06-2014 06:50 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(03-06-2014 06:46 PM)Mozart Link Wrote:  Logic itself is the truth and speaks the truth regardless of what anyone's interpretation of something is. I believe that what I'm saying here is logical which means you have to give me a logical explanation as to why you disagree with what I just said in order for me to believe it.

Also, I am not referring to a belief in god and religion in saying all of these things--I am only saying these things in terms of human value alone.

No, logic provides neither truth nor information.

A logical argument is only as good as its premises; if those are free floating, you have a pretty structure with no necessary connection to reality.

You want truth or knowledge, you need facts and evidence.
Regardless of facts and evidence, even if I were to explain things in terms of science and mathematics (something a scientist and mathematician would agree with) as to why I believe what I'm saying, not even that would convince you that what I'm saying is true?
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03-06-2014, 06:59 PM
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
(03-06-2014 06:46 PM)Mozart Link Wrote:  
(03-06-2014 05:44 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Hey.

Bud.

Saying something does not establish something. Assertion is not substantiation.
Logic itself is the truth and speaks the truth regardless of what anyone's interpretation of something is.

No, logic speaks only to self-consistency, and that is quite independent of the quality of one's premises.

(03-06-2014 06:46 PM)Mozart Link Wrote:  I believe that what I'm saying here is logical which means you have to give me a logical explanation as to why you disagree with what I just said in order for me to believe it.

... Except all you've done is state what you believe. As an opinion. "Logic" has nowhere entered the picture.

To counter an assertion requires only as much substance as the declaration; I dismiss your feels with my own feels. QED.

(03-06-2014 06:46 PM)Mozart Link Wrote:  Also, I am not referring to a belief in god and religion in saying all of these things--I am only saying these things in terms of human value alone.

... and value is an inherently subjective judgement.

So there's that.

... this is my signature!
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03-06-2014, 07:00 PM
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
(03-06-2014 06:56 PM)Mozart Link Wrote:  
(03-06-2014 06:50 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, logic provides neither truth nor information.

A logical argument is only as good as its premises; if those are free floating, you have a pretty structure with no necessary connection to reality.

You want truth or knowledge, you need facts and evidence.
Regardless of facts and evidence, even if I were to explain things in terms of science and mathematics (something a scientist and mathematician would agree with) as to why I believe what I'm saying, not even that would convince you that what I'm saying is true?

Without facts and evidence, no, you won't convince anyone.

With facts and evidence, anything is possible.

We have enough youth. How about looking for the Fountain of Smart?
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03-06-2014, 07:04 PM
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
Logic is not truth.

All flying cats are born with special claws to better grip their prey when they swoop down from the sky.

Some cats are born with special claws

Thus we can now say that some cats are flying cats because as we showed earlier cats with special claws are flying cats.

You can create logical lies. Nothing about logic prevents you from lying or being deceptive.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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03-06-2014, 07:05 PM
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
(03-06-2014 06:56 PM)Mozart Link Wrote:  
(03-06-2014 06:50 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, logic provides neither truth nor information.

A logical argument is only as good as its premises; if those are free floating, you have a pretty structure with no necessary connection to reality.

You want truth or knowledge, you need facts and evidence.
Regardless of facts and evidence, even if I were to explain things in terms of science and mathematics (something a scientist and mathematician would agree with) as to why I believe what I'm saying, not even that would convince you that what I'm saying is true?

Without evidence? No.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-06-2014, 07:12 PM
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
I may not be able to convince anyone, but as long as I can get to the point where no one can any longer find any reasons to argue against my reasonings, then that would be good enough and might have the potential to convince someone anyway. It might come down to a situation such as "I can't argue against what you just said, but I still have my own beliefs and you still have yours. Therefore, I cannot be convinced of your belief." Even such a situation like this would be good enough for me.
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03-06-2014, 07:14 PM
RE: The Perfect Ideal World Created By Science
(03-06-2014 07:12 PM)Mozart Link Wrote:  I may not be able to convince anyone, but as long as I can get to the point where no one can any longer find any reasons to argue against my reasonings, then that would be good enough and might have the potential to convince someone anyway. It might come down to a situation such as "I can't argue against what you just said, but I still have my own beliefs and you still have yours. Therefore, I cannot be convinced of your belief." Even such a situation like this would be good enough for me.

Good enough for what?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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