The Pledge of Allegiance
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23-10-2016, 08:14 PM
RE: The Pledge of Allegiance
I'm pretty conflicted, I guess. I stand for the pledge, and recite it (less the "under gawd" part). Call it canalization, whatever you want, but what I really pledge to is the freedom that it represents. Despite what many people say and believe about the US, we do have a lot of freedoms...including not having to stand, or recite the pledge, or not say the "under gawd" part...except in some cases with gawd-botherers. Someone other than me can go research how many other countries allow someone not to stand and deliver. Some country's regimes will punish you for it. Here, we see smarmy cartoons with a disabled Vet when some kid exercises his/her freedom to not stand and deliver. I'm a Vet, and I support a child's choice to not stand and deliver. Though I must also say that at a young enough age, the child has probably been indoctrinated, because what does a 5th grader (for example) know about the world?. Angel
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23-10-2016, 08:18 PM
RE: The Pledge of Allegiance
I feel like life as an American is one of subjugation and oppression.
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23-10-2016, 08:36 PM
RE: The Pledge of Allegiance
(23-10-2016 08:18 PM)ImFred Wrote:  I feel like life as an American is one of subjugation and oppression.

Why do you feel that? Honestly curious.
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23-10-2016, 09:03 PM
RE: The Pledge of Allegiance
Meh, I stopped saying "under god" in junior high. I'd prefer it not be recited at all. There are better ways to demonstrate allegiance than mouthing words.
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24-10-2016, 12:53 AM
RE: The Pledge of Allegiance
(23-10-2016 05:52 PM)AnaBunny Wrote:  I've heard of atheists refusing to say America's Pledge of Allegiance because they are bothered by the line "under God."

How do you feel about it?

I've always just skipped over "under God" and said the rest of it. Recently, though, I haven't been standing at all, not because of that line, but because why bother standing if I don't have to? I don't see a good purpose. So far, no one seems to care whether I sit or stand, so...


I don't say it at all. It's a creepy ritual with nationalistic overtones that make me very uncomfortable. If the nation wants my allegiance, it had better earn it; pledging blind support to it otherwise is just fucking stupid.

[Image: madison_square_nazi_rally_1939_6.jpg]

Yeah, that's from an German American Bund rally in Madison Square Garden, 1939. Yes, those are Nazi supporters with swastikas standing next to American flags and a three story tall painting of George Washington.

[Image: madison_square_nazi_rally_1939_5.jpg]

Here is approximately 22,000 of them pledging allegiance to their flags.


http://rarehistoricalphotos.com/american...rden-1939/

[Image: E3WvRwZ.gif]
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24-10-2016, 02:22 AM
RE: The Pledge of Allegiance
(23-10-2016 05:52 PM)AnaBunny Wrote:  I've heard of atheists refusing to say America's Pledge of Allegiance because they are bothered by the line "under God."

How do you feel about it?

I've always just skipped over "under God" and said the rest of it. Recently, though, I haven't been standing at all, not because of that line, but because why bother standing if I don't have to? I don't see a good purpose. So far, no one seems to care whether I sit or stand, so...
I'm not an American, but as an outsider I find it a bit weird that a modern free country forces its young children to pledge to their flag each day.
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24-10-2016, 02:42 AM
RE: The Pledge of Allegiance
(23-10-2016 07:29 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  It bothers me because they *changed* the original Pledge from "one nation indivisible", its original wording, and literally divided it by adding the bit in the middle of the phrase about subjugating ourselves to monotheism.

It was changed in 1954 at the behest of the Knights of Columbus (a Catholic organization), which pressured/lobbied congress (its more-fundamentalist members) to change the Pledge in response to atheistic communism. This was at the height of the Red Scare, blacklisting, and the "House Un-American Activities Committee" witch-hunting... so no one dared to object.

It was around the same time that they also changed our national motto from "Out of Many, One" to the theocratic "In God We Trust", and put it on all our money, ensuring that every time I talk to a religious person about being an atheist, they're now able to point at a dollar bill and ask me, "How can you be an American and an atheist... after all, IN GOD WE TRUST!"

Rolleyes

Thanks, i was about to ask where that " undergod" part came from. Looks like the US had a lot of problems during the 50s and was actually taking several steps back from its original intentions in 17xx. All this because of the commie threat? The fearmongering must have been indeed huge (as indicated by McCarthy), even compared by todays standards.

I think we should remember these times as a bad example then, how bad the results of fear(mongering) can be, particularly in our current times where the "new right" already has saddled that horse again and is in full gallop (f**k, why do we spell galopp, and you guys gallop, thats nasty shit Censored ).

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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24-10-2016, 05:21 AM
RE: The Pledge of Allegiance
(23-10-2016 08:36 PM)Fireball Wrote:  
(23-10-2016 08:18 PM)ImFred Wrote:  I feel like life as an American is one of subjugation and oppression.

Why do you feel that? Honestly curious.

Democracy demands so much submission to authority that people actually consider it a cherished right to vote to have people lord over them. I don't want a leader. To me, it's like being told it's an honor and a privilege and my civic duty to choose my method of execution. By voting, you're stating in advance that you think a specific person should have power over you. I find that humiliating and an affront to my humanity.

The economic system we're in is even worse. I never requested to live in a system that demands money to survive. It's almost impossible to escape the prison of a lifetime of trying to accumulate wealth or to just "earn" enough for food and shelter. Amazingly, people call these social traps freedom and democracy.
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24-10-2016, 06:08 AM
RE: The Pledge of Allegiance
I see the pledge, without the 'under god', as appropriate in some military and government settings but totally inappropriate in public schools and private settings. With 'under god' it is inappropriate anywhere. I generally try to be out of the room on the rare occasions where some meeting I'm attending starts with it. I will not say it or stand (if I was at an occasion where I thought it was appropriate I would stand).

I sometimes give tours at a local historic site that includes a schoolhouse and we have the original pledge wording posted. I get a cheap thrill explaining that we had no pledge until late 1892 and then no 'under god' for another 62 years. Most people are amazed that it wasn't written during the revolutionary period. Americans don't know their own history, let alone much from the rest of the world.

(I also get to explain how the US used the Bellamy salute for the pledge up until the 1940s)
[Image: Students_pledging_allegiance_to_the_Amer...salute.jpg]

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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24-10-2016, 06:10 AM
RE: The Pledge of Allegiance
(24-10-2016 05:21 AM)ImFred Wrote:  
(23-10-2016 08:36 PM)Fireball Wrote:  Why do you feel that? Honestly curious.

Democracy demands so much submission to authority that people actually consider it a cherished right to vote to have people lord over them. I don't want a leader. To me, it's like being told it's an honor and a privilege and my civic duty to choose my method of execution. By voting, you're stating in advance that you think a specific person should have power over you. I find that humiliating and an affront to my humanity.

The economic system we're in is even worse. I never requested to live in a system that demands money to survive. It's almost impossible to escape the prison of a lifetime of trying to accumulate wealth or to just "earn" enough for food and shelter. Amazingly, people call these social traps freedom and democracy.

We never requested to exist in the first place, yet here we are.

If you find the notion of democracy and public representation to be an affront to your humanity, give an absolute monarchy a try. You'll love it. Lots of exercise, plenty of job security. In fact, your job is so secure that that you'll be locked in the stocks and have your kneecaps broken for trying to quit.

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

--Jake the Dog, Adventure Time

Alouette, je te plumerai.
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