The Power of Love
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09-11-2014, 01:45 PM
RE: The Power of Love
(09-11-2014 01:10 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(09-11-2014 11:24 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Except all that's just so much blind supposition, and it only illustrates how if one begins with presupposition A, one can interpret any "evidence" as re-affirming A.


?

What is presupposition A?

"Love/emotion/whatever suggests God".

Only to those who already believe in God.

If I'm not inclined to teleology (or childish agenticity, to use a better term) then I won't conclude that simply from observation. If I am, then all observation will support that conclusion.

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09-11-2014, 01:58 PM
RE: The Power of Love
I just watched Interstellar. It was semi OK. I heard the science was decently done... Spoiler below.

Up to a point I guess. Because they abandoned any pretense of actual fucking science fairly early on (at least as far as the plot was concerned, I heard that some of their visual stuff was pretty good as far as actual science goes) and just went with fucking power of luuuuuuurve all the way. I hate those people so much right now. Angry I want them to get fucking sucked into a black hole. Assholes... Science rapists. Fuck youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!!!

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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09-11-2014, 02:29 PM
RE: The Power of Love
(09-11-2014 01:45 PM)cjlr Wrote:  What is presupposition A?

"Love/emotion/whatever suggests God". [/quote]

I never said love/emotion/whatever suggests God.

Quote:If I'm not inclined to teleology (or childish agenticity, to use a better term) then I won't conclude that simply from observation.

Of course you wouldn't, but if you tried to peddle certain views on love, as some sort of profound force in the world, unlike any other, where it takes on an almost cosmic proportion, then even if you are not consciously aware of it, you are in fact peddling teleology, in the same way that folks who peddle irreducible complexity are.

Or to put in another way, if you try and sell a picture of the world where it starts to resemble a story, having a sense of narrative dimension, endowed with some sense of meaning, then it shouldn't it be surprising as to why those who buy this picture, would assume there must be an Author.

None of this is in regards to the validity of the picture being sold, but rather what the actual pictures is suggesting, if in fact it were true, or the very least believed to be true. You can find these views all mistaken, and terribly wrong, but this is all besides the point.
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09-11-2014, 02:49 PM
RE: The Power of Love
(09-11-2014 02:29 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I never said love/emotion/whatever suggests God.

Not strictly necessarily, no. I did not say that you did. You said some see things that way; I agreed, insofar as those who already believe in God will see everything in that light.

As in, you did say this:
(09-11-2014 09:48 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Of course, you might not share these views of love, but views such as this lend themselves to some sort of God belief...

Anyway...

(09-11-2014 02:29 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Of course you wouldn't, but if you tried to peddle certain views on love, as some sort of profound force in the world, unlike any other, where it takes on an almost cosmic proportion, then even if you are not consciously aware of it, you are in fact peddling teleology, in the same way that folks who peddle irreducible complexity are.

Even then that does not follow. Profundity does not require teleology; why should those even be connected?

I know of no non-theist who has ever seriously espoused "irreducible complexity". What relevance does that have?

(09-11-2014 02:29 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Or to put in another way, if you try and sell a picture of the world where it starts to resemble a story, having a sense of narrative dimension, endowed with some sense of meaning, then it shouldn't it be surprising as to why those who buy this picture, would assume there must be an Author.

Sure, if they agree with your interpretation. In which case they already agree with you, and you're not selling them anything but confirmation bias.

Notwithstanding that people are free to find their own meanings, obviously.

(09-11-2014 02:29 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  None of this is in regards to the validity of the picture being sold, but rather what the actual pictures is suggesting, if in fact it were true, or the very least believed to be true. You can find these views all mistaken, and terribly wrong, but this is all besides the point.

I'm still not seeing where you're saying anything more than that such beliefs are self-reinforcing. If I believe in a God then every observation I make will have the rider, "and God made it that way".

Which, yeah, sure - but so what?

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09-11-2014, 03:37 PM
RE: The Power of Love
(09-11-2014 02:49 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Which, yeah, sure - but so what?

The problem with this thread is that in starts with my response to someone else, in regards to a series of other responses. It has been removed from its original context, and I doubt anyone bothered to go through the previous thread and read the entire conversation.

And this has led to a number of misunderstandings, which I guess isn't anyone's fault.

My post was originally in response to someone one who couldn't understand why certain views of reality, certain views on things like love, are connected to God belief, or why a belief in a novel, implies a belief in a novelist. All my subsequent post including the ones here, were written to explain why this sort of connection occurs and implies what they do.

At no point was I arguing for the validity of any of these views. In fact I pointed out that I could be an atheists and express all the points i've made so far.

Quote:Even then that does not follow. Profundity does not require teleology; why should those even be connected?

Well, if you didn't remove "profundity" from the entire string of attributes I stated, you probably would have understand that I never claimed profundity in and of itself suggested teleology.

Quote:I know of no non-theist who has ever seriously espoused "irreducible complexity". What relevance does that have?

I don't know, why can't non-theist espouse it? Is there some sort of unwritten conflict between the two? Why would an atheists who believed in irreducible complexity be such an abnormality? a sort of walking contradiction.

Quote:If I believe in a God then every observation I make will have the rider, "and God made it that way".

And if you don't believe in God, then every observation I make will lack the rider. It all becomes non-made. Where one sees a universe endowed with meaning, the other seeing a universe endowed with nothing, intrinsically meaningless, though we're all free to acquire whatever charms we like out of it.
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10-11-2014, 09:54 AM
RE: The Power of Love
(09-11-2014 11:24 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(09-11-2014 09:48 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Of course, you might not share these views of love, but views such as this lend themselves to some sort of God belief...

What? Why?

Citation needed...

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10-11-2014, 01:21 PM
RE: The Power of Love
HoC is the power of love. At least 1 kW. Probably more.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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10-11-2014, 02:28 PM
RE: The Power of Love
God is love? Clearly they don't know that love leads to Shrek

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10-11-2014, 08:05 PM
RE: The Power of Love
Wherever tomsy was going with this quote of me throwing out his very loose abstract terms of nonsense about love quotes... I just felt disappointed the soliloquy from Night of the Hunter/Do the right thing about Love & Hate in eternal conflict didn't come up

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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12-11-2014, 10:13 AM (This post was last modified: 12-11-2014 12:35 PM by TreeSapNest.)
RE: The Power of Love
(09-11-2014 09:48 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  "Darkness cannot drive out darkness:
only light can do that.
Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that." -MLK

Nor can light drive out light or love drive out love. But hate can drive out love as easily as love can drive out hate.

Quote:"Where there is love there is life." -Gandhi

Where there is hate there is life too.

Quote:"Love is a force more formidable than any other. It is invisible - it cannot be seen or measured, yet it is powerful enough to transform you in a moment, and offer you more joy than any material possession could."-
Barbara de Angelis

I think it is true that love probably offers more joy than anything else. Though accomplishment, acceptance, intimacy, self respect, and confidence are just some of the other things that are pretty tight competitors.

Quote:"Love conquers all."- Virgil/Also from the movie Frozen

Our love can overcome any other priority or concern, but other things can too. I don't think there is a deeper love than what exists between a parent and a child, but even that love can be broken or disregarded in favor of something else.

Quote:Of course, you might not share these views of love, but views such as this lend themselves to some sort of God belief, not necessarily any particular God, but when your views on love extend in such a way, the view of the world becomes one that's endowed with some sense of intent and purpose, or in other words teleological. No longer does the world exist as a product of some blind unguided process, but rather created by a power capable of creating with intent and purpose, a power with qualities such as foresight.

I do understand. Love is a good thing. One of the best things in life. But as our needs go, it is not the only thing. Consider one person's take on the secret to happiness:

"Have something to do, something to look forward to, and someone to love."

I think it's a mistake to recognize the value of love and at the same time disregard the value of other things in our lives.
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