The Problem of Good
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12-12-2015, 12:20 PM
RE: The Problem of Good
(12-12-2015 11:13 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(11-12-2015 09:06 PM)julep Wrote:  Not at all.

Peter is a sheep. He is a high-level sheep with extra responsibilities, but he is a sheep. It is by no means true that the sheep and shepherd are one team, as the purpose of the shepherd is to use the sheep for clothes and food. If the sheep did not provide commodities useful to the shepherd, the shepherd would be using his energies elsewhere. Most certainly they are not one family. The sheep family gets a bit easier time with food and shelter before being made into wool and mutton and lamb chops. The shepherd's family wears sweaters and eats sheep.
If Peter was a sheep literally then he couldn't be a shepherd at the time
But because we are all sheep symbolically we can be shepherds literally.

"Symbolism" does not change the fact that shepherds are not leaders/guiders of sheep, they are USERS of sheep, and anything that benefits the sheep is only incidental and temporary to the sheep's true purpose from the shepherd's POV. I'll grant you this: the above is an accurate description of the way your god relates to humans, and of the way prominent church leaders have related to their congregations. Use, use, use.
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12-12-2015, 12:38 PM
RE: The Problem of Good
(12-12-2015 12:20 PM)julep Wrote:  "Symbolism" does not change the fact that shepherds are not leaders/guiders of sheep, they are USERS of sheep, and anything that benefits the sheep is only incidental and temporary to the sheep's true purpose from the shepherd's POV. I'll grant you this: the above is an accurate description of the way your god relates to humans, and of the way prominent church leaders have related to their congregations. Use, use, use.
Of course, God needs us. We serve Him.
We need God, He serves us.
Without us He can not be God. Without Him we can not be Gods.
It is win-win.
We are one team and we all(God and His children) have benefits from it.

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12-12-2015, 12:41 PM
RE: The Problem of Good
(12-12-2015 12:38 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(12-12-2015 12:20 PM)julep Wrote:  "Symbolism" does not change the fact that shepherds are not leaders/guiders of sheep, they are USERS of sheep, and anything that benefits the sheep is only incidental and temporary to the sheep's true purpose from the shepherd's POV. I'll grant you this: the above is an accurate description of the way your god relates to humans, and of the way prominent church leaders have related to their congregations. Use, use, use.
Of course, God needs us. We serve Him.
We need God, He serves us.
Without us He can not be God. Without Him we can not be Gods.
It is win-win.
We are one team and we all(God and His children) have benefits from it.

I see no benefits.

I would never want to be a god, if your god or any other existed. Your god is a monster.

Humans benefit most by turning away from the silly and destructive idea of gods, especially gods who use suffering and death as teaching tools.
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12-12-2015, 12:43 PM
RE: The Problem of Good
(12-12-2015 12:41 PM)julep Wrote:  
(12-12-2015 12:38 PM)Alla Wrote:  Of course, God needs us. We serve Him.
We need God, He serves us.
Without us He can not be God. Without Him we can not be Gods.
It is win-win.
We are one team and we all(God and His children) have benefits from it.

I see no benefits.

I would never want to be a god, if your god or any other existed. Your god is a monster.

Humans benefit most by turning away from the silly and destructive idea of gods, especially gods who use suffering and death as teaching tools.
OK. Smile

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12-12-2015, 01:05 PM
RE: The Problem of Good
[Image: there-can-be-only-one.jpg]

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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12-12-2015, 01:15 PM
RE: The Problem of Good
...
Yes. WE are ONE Smile

......

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12-12-2015, 01:40 PM
RE: The Problem of Good




Immortality would be a curse. Not a blessing.




Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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12-12-2015, 05:55 PM
RE: The Problem of Good
(11-12-2015 03:07 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(11-12-2015 08:08 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I'm running into this in the same thread I started at AF. Someone claimed that when we do bad, that's our choice, but when we do good, that's God acting. I have yet to get a compelling answer as to why this doesn't make God 100% responsible for every time we don't do good.
I will tell you why I may say that when I do good it is God acting.
When I do good I do God's will. His will for me to do good. I am doing His work. I am doing part of His plan.
When I do evil I am not doing what God wants me to do but I do what I want.

I find a couple problems with this.
First, it implies that you never want to do good. That is, when you see someone suffering you're not helping them because you want to, but only because god commands you to. This means you are never good, only evil, always, that you cannot possibly do good because any time good is the outcome it isn't you. Which means after death when you become a god yourself... you'll no longer have any reason to do good, or even the possibility, because you'll be your own authority. Or, worse, it'll become impossible for you to do evil because anything you do as a god will be your will and therefore good by definition.

And that's the second one. It defines good as "whatever god wants". So when god wants you to slaughter the entire civilian population of a conquered people, men, women, and children, save for the virgin girls whom you are to give to your soldiers, not only is it "good" to do so, it's evil to show some basic humanity and not do that.

(12-12-2015 12:38 PM)Alla Wrote:  Of course, God needs us. We serve Him.
We need God, He serves us.
Without us He can not be God. Without Him we can not be Gods.
It is win-win.
We are one team and we all(God and His children) have benefits from it.

A being able to make a universe such as this should have no need of humanity.
More than this, referring to people as sheep (as you do in other posts) doesn't put us on his team. It makes us something to be used as long as we are beneficial, discarded otherwise. That's not a symbiotic relationship, it's a parasitic one (yes, we are parasites in this way).
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12-12-2015, 06:27 PM
RE: The Problem of Good
Epicurus solved it, around 300 b.c.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" -Epicurus (341-270B.C.E.)
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12-12-2015, 06:29 PM
RE: The Problem of Good
(07-12-2015 09:36 AM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(07-12-2015 09:14 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Why only sometimes, why won't he stick around like a begging puppy?

There is literally nothing a omnipotent creator god can't be responsible for. Perhaps not "directly" though technically anything that happens was because of him. If one says, well you had the free will to do X.. yes that type of God would of created you with free will so that God is still responsible for it. Good things, bad things, and ambivalent randomness like you find a penny on the ground but then accidentally kick it into the sewer grate level of acts.
I see your logic and I agree, to an extent . Didn't your parents punish you when you were a child? Why did they punish you? Was it because they hated you or because they loved you? Yes, if someone says that God does not bring any hardship in their life, they are wrong. There are many examples in the bible where God does bad things to people for a good purpose.

Now you are getting very close to understanding the big picture. The next step is asking your self " God is also all knowing yet he created Lucifer with the pride in his heart knowing that he would rebel and take a third of the angels with him. Why?"

Why not? sounds like fun to me, We'll start with war in Heaven and then have our Fave peeps kill anyone we Gods don't like for the next few thousand years,then we'll have our own son killed by these same favorite people and on and on!
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