The Problem of Good
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07-12-2015, 01:33 PM
RE: The Problem of Good
(07-12-2015 01:28 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(07-12-2015 01:25 PM)Alla Wrote:  My point is that question was not rhetorical, Jesus gave an answer. Those people perished because they didn't repent, not because they were in a wrong place at a wrong time.
Jesus also said those who do not repent will die likewise(God will kill them), they are not going to die naturally.

How is there a distinction?

If all that is nature is from god, dying naturally is dying because of God.
Dying naturally is from God but it is not a punishment. When God kills you because you do evil, then it is punishment. This is the difference.

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07-12-2015, 01:33 PM
RE: The Problem of Good
(07-12-2015 12:41 PM)jabeady Wrote:  
(07-12-2015 11:33 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  I disagree.

Shit happens. Some of it's good, some of it's bad. We have to deal with all of it.


Things are only confusing if you postulate a god(s).

More from my manifesto:

Then the atheist gets to ask the believer a question: Why do bad things happen to good people? Typically there are two likely responses: it's some sort of test, or God moves in mysterious ways. I have always found these answers to be less than satisfactory because the first seems to imply that this compassionate God must continually feed his own ego by inflicting pain on his most faithful subjects to test their love for him, while the second requires an undeserved (near as I can tell) trust in divine motivation. Yet, the faithful Christian continually returns to an abusive God in much the same manner as an abused wife continually returns to her husband. The believer has faith that God has a good reason and the wife (doctors tell us) that she deserves it; both seem pathetic to me. For the non-believer it's easy: bad things happen to good people because stuff happens. Ironically, in a Bible passage that seems to be entirely overlooked by most Christians, Christ seems to agree. In Luke 13:1-5, Jesus refers to an incident where 18 people were killed by a collapsing tower; he then rhetorically asks whether they died because they were such great sinners, or because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. To my memory, I have never experienced or heard of a sermon that referred to this passage. Perhaps that's because it would be too difficult to describe as compassionate a deity who would knowingly, remembering that God is omniscient, cause or allow pain for no particular reason.
I don't understand why people still assume that God would allow someone to suffer "for no reason". The reason is clearly written in:

Romans 5:3-5
3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

James 1:1-4
Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

2 Corinthians 12:9-10
But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

So I shouldn't be hearing anyone else say "God causes people to suffer for no reason."
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07-12-2015, 01:33 PM
RE: The Problem of Good
double post, sorry

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07-12-2015, 01:35 PM
RE: The Problem of Good
(07-12-2015 01:30 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(07-12-2015 01:20 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  We're supposed to apologize for the sin nature we were created with?
So our creator makes us flawed, then demands that we heal ourselves of that flawed nature or we will be punished for all eternity.
No, there is no such thing as sin nature. We are born pure and clean.
(07-12-2015 01:20 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  And if you believe exodus, then even if we make the "right" choice, the loving god can "harden our hearts" and make us sin.
I believe exodus as far as it is translated correctly. That is an error. Correct translation: but pharaoh hardened his heart.
(07-12-2015 01:20 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  But it's ok because jesus loves us.
Yes, He does.

The Q also says Exodus is not translated correctly, but he proclaims it differently. He says,
(29-01-2015 12:52 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. The Hebrew is as I understand it ... The phrase is like "squeezed Pharoah's heart to see what's inside". The squeezing was the plagues, Moses and Aaron preaching, the Egyptians saying things to Pharoah (that would have been super in the Bale movie) like "Don't you know Egypt is destroyed?! Let Moses's people go...!"

Why should I take your word or interpretation over his? He proclaims to have some knowledge of the original Hebrew too. He says that God was still the active hand in the phrase, while you claimed it was that Pharaoh as the active person in the phrase. Those are two juxtaposed views of the same passages.

What is the grounds for you believing your claims about it?

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07-12-2015, 01:35 PM
RE: The Problem of Good
(07-12-2015 10:05 AM)Alla Wrote:  Inspiration, my friend. Inspiration. God inspires us(thanks for this to God) only then we act for ourselves - we are free to choose to follow inspiration and then we do good, or we are free to choose not follow inspiration and then we don't do good.
We are enticed by good or by evil. Only then we act for ourselves.

...Yeah, and Satan inspires us to be bad. I've been told this countless times. He's clever and wily and whatever mixed adjectives you want to ascribe to him.

So, they are seemingly acting in an identical fashion (both tempting/inspiring us to take one course of action), yet, when the rubber meets the road, we get blamed for following Satan's bad advice and God gets praised when we follow his inspiration. It's still asymetrical and it's still special pleading.
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07-12-2015, 01:41 PM
RE: The Problem of Good
mgoering Wrote:Basically Jesus is saying, "No, they're not worse sinners than you. You just wait. Your time will come!... or you can repent and I'll spare your ass!"
it doesn't matter what kind of sinners we are, what is matter is that we repent. No un-repentant sin will be forgiven. Even a tiny un-repentant sin can not be forgiven.
mgoering Wrote:We are told the same thing about the 2nd coming. "Be forever watchful, and make sure you repent of ever sin you commit because you never know when he will come." It does't matter if you accepted Jesus into your life, if you're not on his good side, well you're just fucked!
Not exactly. But it is too long to explain.

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07-12-2015, 01:46 PM
RE: The Problem of Good
(07-12-2015 01:33 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  So I shouldn't be hearing anyone else say "God causes people to suffer for no reason."

The verses you quoted are frequently touted by xians looking to hold up the persecution card. They don't actually explain anything but they do provide a nice "feel-good" way to gloss over the problem.

Adults can attempt to make something good out of adversity but that doesn't mean there was a reason for it. It also doesn't mean that a reason is sufficient to justify the suffering -- the ends don't always justify the means. It also doesn't explain why suffering is so unevenly distributed.

Does this also apply to infants born with crippling birth defects and suffer short, painful lives that end before they can even understand endurance and character?

Does it count if god's reason doesn't involve the person that is actually suffering? I suspect Job's family would not consider teaching Satan a lesson to be a reason that they should be chosen to suffer.

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07-12-2015, 01:46 PM
RE: The Problem of Good
RobbyPants:
...Yeah, and Satan inspires us to be bad. I've been told this countless times. He's clever and wily and whatever mixed adjectives you want to ascribe to him.
Alla
I wouldn't use word "inspiration" when we talk about Satan.

RobbyPants
So, they are seemingly acting in an identical fashion (both tempting/inspiring us to take one course of action), yet, when the rubber meets the road, we get blamed for following Satan's bad advice and God gets praised when we follow his inspiration. It's still asymetrical and it's still special pleading.
Alla
When we choose follow God's inspiration we also get praised. We also get rewarded like only Gods can be rewarded. But we praise God for giving us inspiration.

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07-12-2015, 01:53 PM
RE: The Problem of Good
ClydeLee:
Why should I take your word or interpretation over his?
Alla:
You shouldn't. I only share the translation you choose what to do with it.

ClydeLee:
What is the grounds for you believing your claims about it?
Alla:
1) I follow teaching of the Prophets of God and not philosophies of men. Prophets teach correct translations.
2) There is a power that convinces me some how that this is the only true translation. I believe this power has a name - the Holy Ghost.

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07-12-2015, 02:07 PM
RE: The Problem of Good
(07-12-2015 01:53 PM)Alla Wrote:  ClydeLee:
Why should I take your word or interpretation over his?
Alla:
You shouldn't. I only share the translation you choose what to do with it.

ClydeLee:
What is the grounds for you believing your claims about it?
Alla:
1) I follow teaching of the Prophets of God and not philosophies of men. Prophets teach correct translations.
2) There is a power that convinces me some how that this is the only true translation. I believe this power has a name - the Holy Ghost.

Q could also be called a Prophet based on his statements, basically anyone is a prophet if they speak out as one. There is no reason to trust his stance any less as a Prophet. How do you determine who is a Prophet of God vs just a man?

Why would you believe it is anything other than your intuition and consciousness of your own being and instead something extra in the holy ghost?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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