The Problem of Imperfection
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20-08-2014, 12:08 PM
The Problem of Imperfection
Most of us are familiar with The Problem of Evil which refutes the god having the 3 omni characteristics. I was thinking about the concept of perfection and I think this refutes the same god concept and any other that holds god is perfect. This can be useful as another debate angle when someone insists that free will is the answer to the problem of evil.

What does the concept of a perfect god mean? It means that god is the best anything can possibly be. It is free of weaknesses, mistakes, incapabilities, etc. It would have to encompass the 3 omni characteristics. Therefore, such a god would have everything already, would desire nothing, would have nothing to learn, nothing to improve upon. It would already be as good as anything can possibly be.

Therefore, I argue that such a perfect god would not ever create anything else that is less than perfect. Think about it. If you knew how to create a drug that would cure cancer, why would you create something less - say, just a cure for the symptoms of cancer? Perhaps we might do so in addition to the cure itself for the sake of learning or to provide some relief during periods of temporary shortages of the cancer curing drug, but a perfect god wouldn't have anything to learn and could simply blink and cure all cancer.

Moreover, why would a perfect god desire to create something imperfect when it would desire nothing at all in the first place. It wouldn't be for entertainment. A perfect god would need or want nothing so that includes entertainment. In fact, why would a perfect god create anything at all?

I believe the existence of imperfection itself disproves the existence of any perfect being.

I expect the reply from theists will be along the lines of "we can't understand god's plan". But I believe the perfect god concept negates the plan too. A plan for what? Why would a perfect god need or want a plan? A perfect god would simply be and continue being. It would already be content and would need or want nothing else. So it wouldn't create anything else - much less anything imperfect.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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20-08-2014, 12:13 PM
RE: The Problem of Imperfection
The funny thing about god claims...is that to me they sound so obviously absurd that I almost don't understand how anybody could believe them. Like...a "perfect being". With absolutely no precedent or evidence, how does such an assertion even get the time of day for deep consideration? I wonder if my theist friends even believe their god is perfect. However I don't want to upset them by asking. Undecided

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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20-08-2014, 01:16 PM
RE: The Problem of Imperfection
I agree, the definition of perfection is going to be about as nebulous as the definition of god. However, I think it's axiomatic that there is no such thing as perfection, therefore there is no such thing as a god, it's merely a concept within our minds and each mind defines it differently.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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20-08-2014, 01:22 PM
RE: The Problem of Imperfection
Also, I think the idea that a god created us automatically implies some need of his would be met by our creation. If you are perfect, you have no needs.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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20-08-2014, 01:37 PM
RE: The Problem of Imperfection
(20-08-2014 12:08 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Most of us are familiar with The Problem of Evil which refutes the god having the 3 omni characteristics. I was thinking about the concept of perfection and I think this refutes the same god concept and any other that holds god is perfect. This can be useful as another debate angle when someone insists that free will is the answer to the problem of evil.

What does the concept of a perfect god mean? It means that god is the best anything can possibly be. It is free of weaknesses, mistakes, incapabilities, etc. It would have to encompass the 3 omni characteristics. Therefore, such a god would have everything already, would desire nothing, would have nothing to learn, nothing to improve upon. It would already be as good as anything can possibly be.

Therefore, I argue that such a perfect god would not ever create anything else that is less than perfect. Think about it. If you knew how to create a drug that would cure cancer, why would you create something less - say, just a cure for the symptoms of cancer? Perhaps we might do so in addition to the cure itself for the sake of learning or to provide some relief during periods of temporary shortages of the cancer curing drug, but a perfect god wouldn't have anything to learn and could simply blink and cure all cancer.

Moreover, why would a perfect god desire to create something imperfect when it would desire nothing at all in the first place. It wouldn't be for entertainment. A perfect god would need or want nothing so that includes entertainment. In fact, why would a perfect god create anything at all?

I believe the existence of imperfection itself disproves the existence of any perfect being.

I expect the reply from theists will be along the lines of "we can't understand god's plan". But I believe the perfect god concept negates the plan too. A plan for what? Why would a perfect god need or want a plan? A perfect god would simply be and continue being. It would already be content and would need or want nothing else. So it wouldn't create anything else - much less anything imperfect.

I don't know. I think I could cook up some theory involving perfectibility. God creates beings (us, of course) that are not perfect but are perfectible.
Then free will, sin, perfect plan, <feels>, prophet.

But I won't because I can't be arsed. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-08-2014, 01:41 PM
RE: The Problem of Imperfection
I think the creation of god give us that 'security blanket' feeling of something greater to aspire to. Rather than bettering yourself for personal reasons or for reasons to further better the greater good -- god is an ideal that gives us pseudo-accountability. There is no perfection, only the ideal of the perfection that the individual perceives.

I tend to ask random questions, sometime stupid ones, but I can almost guarantee I'm smarter for asking than not.
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20-08-2014, 02:55 PM
RE: The Problem of Imperfection
(20-08-2014 01:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  I don't know. I think I could cook up some theory involving perfectibility. God creates beings (us, of course) that are not perfect but are perfectible.
Then free will, sin, perfect plan, <feels>, prophet.

But I won't because I can't be arsed. Drinking Beverage
I'm not sure if you're serious since that sounds an awful lot like what the religions say that believe in a perfect god. But, if you are, I can't think of a reason why a perfect god would do this. Possible reasons like curiosity, entertainment, experimentation, or learning don't make sense for a perfect being.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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20-08-2014, 03:44 PM
RE: The Problem of Imperfection
(20-08-2014 02:55 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(20-08-2014 01:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  I don't know. I think I could cook up some theory involving perfectibility. God creates beings (us, of course) that are not perfect but are perfectible.
Then free will, sin, perfect plan, <feels>, prophet.

But I won't because I can't be arsed. Drinking Beverage
I'm not sure if you're serious since that sounds an awful lot like what the religions say that believe in a perfect god. But, if you are, I can't think of a reason why a perfect god would do this. Possible reasons like curiosity, entertainment, experimentation, or learning don't make sense for a perfect being.

I am serious that a religious person could concoct a theory along those lines.
And someone probably has.

I was just using it to point out that a god creating apparent imperfection is not the slam-dunk argument you appeared to be saying it is.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-08-2014, 03:54 PM
RE: The Problem of Imperfection
(20-08-2014 03:44 PM)Chas Wrote:  I am serious that a religious person could concoct a theory along those lines.
And someone probably has.

I was just using it to point out that a god creating apparent imperfection is not the slam-dunk argument you appeared to be saying it is.
I didn't mean to imply that it's a slam dunk in terms of convincing theists. I think it can provide something different for them to consider and it may contribute to opening some minds. But surely magic trumps all so no, not a slam dunk by any means. I do, however, think it's logically sound for anyone that is willing think outside the religion box with some intellectual honesty. But, if I'm wrong about that, by all means shoot holes in it. I'm all about the intellectually honesty myself and that trumps all for me.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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20-08-2014, 04:00 PM
RE: The Problem of Imperfection
(20-08-2014 12:13 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  The funny thing about god claims...is that to me they sound so obviously absurd that I almost don't understand how anybody could believe them. Like...a "perfect being". With absolutely no precedent or evidence, how does such an assertion even get the time of day for deep consideration? I wonder if my theist friends even believe their god is perfect. However I don't want to upset them by asking. Undecided
Philosophicaly speaking (I' no philosopher BTW), but it seems fair enough to ponder certain concepts. It's all fine and dandy, but to then pull an imagined concept out of the realm of imagination and then to "choose" to believe it as an existent thing.
That's absurd.
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