The REAL Unmoved mover argument; can you challenge the it?
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01-09-2015, 08:29 PM (This post was last modified: 01-09-2015 08:32 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: The REAL Unmoved mover argument; can you challenge the it?
(01-09-2015 07:31 PM)Free Wrote:  Just remove the buses and all you have left is an infinite number of people still going into an infinite number of rooms.

It's all about the people and the rooms, the buses are not part of the equation.

There is no infinity times infinity. It's an illusion. There also can be no time, as infinity is not related to time, but is hand-in-hand with eternity. One cannot be without the other, and neither are restricted by any kind of time-line. Time is a measurement, eternity is not.

The Hilbert Hotel is merely a construction of a time-line with infinite points stretching into infinity, eternally.

I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to say here but I hope you are not suggesting that Cantor's Diagonalization is flawed because then you would be just silly.

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01-09-2015, 08:39 PM (This post was last modified: 01-09-2015 09:21 PM by Free.)
RE: The REAL Unmoved mover argument; can you challenge the it?
(01-09-2015 08:29 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(01-09-2015 07:31 PM)Free Wrote:  Just remove the buses and all you have left is an infinite number of people still going into an infinite number of rooms.

It's all about the people and the rooms, the buses are not part of the equation.

There is no infinity times infinity. It's an illusion. There also can be no time, as infinity is not related to time, but is hand-in-hand with eternity. One cannot be without the other, and neither are restricted by any kind of time-line. Time is a measurement, eternity is not.

The Hilbert Hotel is merely a construction of a time-line with infinite points stretching into infinity, eternally.

I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to say here but I hope you are not suggesting that Cantor's Diagonalization is flawed because then you would be just silly.

Nope, they are unrelated.

Infinity is an axiomatic truth. One can count an infinite amount of numbers, and since one can count infinitely, it demonstrates that one could count those numbers for all of eternity. Hence, eternity is also an axiomatic truth.

But time is not. It is a construct we devised to measure points- a time line- in eternity. It has limitations, and when you add limitations into anything that is infinite and eternal, you will either get an unsolvable problem, or a paradox. It is inevitable.

In the Hotel scenario, you may envision an infinite number of buses, each filled with an infinite number of people, lined up behind each other waiting their turn to be checked into the hotel. The problem appears to be that since the first bus has infinite people, it could never be emptied so that the manager could get to the second bus, or any other bus to check in the infinite people on those buses.

The problem is that each bus can be looked at as a container, and this container is given the limitation of dimension while being expected to contain infinity and eternity.

This is flawed logic, for neither infinity nor eternity can be contained in any limited container. Theoretically, the first bus therefore could be the only bus, for if it encompassed both infinity and eternity, it therefore would need to also be of infinite dimension and eternal. Hence, if it was infinite and eternal, there can be only one.

In short, once you add dimensions and limited measurements to a problem involving anything infinite, all you are going to be working on is the fruitless effort to try and square the circle all over again.

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01-09-2015, 09:10 PM
RE: The REAL Unmoved mover argument; can you challenge the it?
(01-09-2015 08:09 PM)Banjo Wrote:  I too read the ancients. I regret the wasted time and wish I'd studied physics.

See, you say that, but I spent much of my several months long break from physics studying the ancients, among other things. If you make the physics your profession you're going to regret, ever so slightly, the time you can't spend studying everything else.

If you've never been in a position to have access to a university library while having no commitments on your time whatsoever, I highly recommend it.

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01-09-2015, 09:10 PM (This post was last modified: 01-09-2015 09:22 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: The REAL Unmoved mover argument; can you challenge the it?
(01-09-2015 08:39 PM)Free Wrote:  
(01-09-2015 08:29 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to say here but I hope you are not suggesting that Cantor's Diagonalization is flawed because then you would be just silly.

Nope, they are unrelated.

Are you really telling me that Hilbert's Hotel and Cantor's Diagonalization are unrelated? Just making sure, is that your final answer? Have you heard of countably infinite and uncountably infinite sets? Do you know the difference? I'm only asking to determine how much credence I should give to your posts which contain mathematics is all.

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01-09-2015, 09:15 PM
RE: The REAL Unmoved mover argument; can you challenge the it?
(01-09-2015 09:10 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(01-09-2015 08:09 PM)Banjo Wrote:  I too read the ancients. I regret the wasted time and wish I'd studied physics.

See, you say that, but I spent much of my several months long break from physics studying the ancients, among other things. If you make the physics your profession you're going to regret, ever so slightly, the time you can't spend studying everything else.

If you've never been in a position to have access to a university library while having no commitments on your time whatsoever, I highly recommend it.


I worry I am too late. Also I lack education outside of reading classics.

I have been watching physics documentaries on the net as a start.

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01-09-2015, 09:26 PM
RE: The REAL Unmoved mover argument; can you challenge the it?
(01-09-2015 09:15 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(01-09-2015 09:10 PM)cjlr Wrote:  See, you say that, but I spent much of my several months long break from physics studying the ancients, among other things. If you make the physics your profession you're going to regret, ever so slightly, the time you can't spend studying everything else.

If you've never been in a position to have access to a university library while having no commitments on your time whatsoever, I highly recommend it.


I worry I am too late. Also I lack education outside of reading classics.

I have been watching physics documentaries on the net as a start.

My old roommate was a computer scientist, but my old old roommate was a classics major...

To skim through the natural philosophy of the ancient writers is, I think, more useful than is sometimes credited (what with them being dead wrong about all of it!). Some of the most elucidative moments in my lectures came from professors digressing into the history of the science they were teaching, rather than strictly the mechanics thereof.
(actually, that's why my number one book recommendation of all time is what it is)

Mathematical rigour is something that must be deliberately pursued, and takes dedicated study. But a qualitative understanding of modern science isn't beyond anyone with a sharp mind.

"Too late" implies you want to do something with the knowledge other than appreciate it for its own sake, I think. I don't think that's necessary in any sense, but then again, that may have just been your incidental choice of words.

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01-09-2015, 09:27 PM (This post was last modified: 01-09-2015 09:45 PM by Free.)
RE: The REAL Unmoved mover argument; can you challenge the it?
(01-09-2015 09:10 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(01-09-2015 08:39 PM)Free Wrote:  Nope, they are unrelated.

Are you really telling me that Hilbert's Hotel and Cantor's Diagonalization are unrelated? Just making sure, is that your final answer? Have you heard of countably infinite and uncountably infinite sets? Do you know the difference? I'm only asking to determine how much credence I should give to your posts which contain mathematics is all.

Read above. Afterwards, go look at those problems and pick out where the measurements/dimensions/limitations are, and you will know where and what the problem actually is.

This is not about math at all. Math is the illusion.

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01-09-2015, 09:45 PM
RE: The REAL Unmoved mover argument; can you challenge the it?
(01-09-2015 09:27 PM)Free Wrote:  
(01-09-2015 09:10 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Are you really telling me that Hilbert's Hotel and Cantor's Diagonalization are unrelated? Just making sure, is that your final answer? Have you heard of countably infinite and uncountably infinite sets? Do you know the difference? I'm only asking to determine how much credence I should give to your posts which contain mathematics is all.

Read above.

You don't realize that Hilbert's Hotel is taught nearly universally in university to move Cantor's Diagonalization cookies to a lower shelf where mental midgets like myself can reach them? ... just btw, how tall are you?

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01-09-2015, 09:47 PM
RE: The REAL Unmoved mover argument; can you challenge the it?
(01-09-2015 09:45 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(01-09-2015 09:27 PM)Free Wrote:  Read above.

You don't realize that Hilbert's Hotel is taught nearly universally in university to move Cantor's Diagonalization cookies to a lower shelf where mental midgets like myself can reach them? ... just btw, how tall are you?

Infinite sized.

Laugh out load

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01-09-2015, 09:49 PM
RE: The REAL Unmoved mover argument; can you challenge the it?
(01-09-2015 09:47 PM)Free Wrote:  
(01-09-2015 09:45 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  You don't realize that Hilbert's Hotel is taught nearly universally in university to move Cantor's Diagonalization cookies to a lower shelf where mental midgets like myself can reach them? ... just btw, how tall are you?

Infinite sized.

Laugh out load

Yes, but what is the cardinality of that infinity?

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