The Really Stupid Part of Creationism
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26-01-2016, 06:46 PM
RE: The Really Stupid Part of Creationism
(26-01-2016 01:02 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  Yeah. Not that I ever argue this way, but the idea that everything that exists must have been created. Yet there exists this being that was not created but created everything else...makes no sense. It's an uninformed attempt at understanding existence. The model breaks under simple logic.
Their argument isn't "everything that exists must have been created" it is "everything that began to exist must have had a cause"

But of course they equivocate "began to exist" with "constructed from existing material" for example they may claim that a chair began to exist because one day their wasn't a chair, next minute a person comes along and creates a chair. Or, one day there wasn't a baby and next minute two people came together and created a baby.
So they would say that the chair and the baby "began to exist". they would extrapolate that out and say that of all things known to "begin to exist" they all where known to have a cause. then they say, "The universe began to exist with the big bang, therefore it must have had a cause, we call that cause GOD".

BUT creating something from nothing is very different from creating something from existing material. We don't know if it is possible to create something from nothing, it appears to violate the law of conservation.

Now, I don't have a problem with having an eternal "something', perhaps that is the quantum vacuum. And perhaps somehow the quantum vacuum is able to produce an expanding universe. I wouldn't call that GOD. I would think to have a God you need intentionality, and to have intentionality you need intelligence.

My main problem with the eternal god idea is that how can the eternal god have intelligence prior to existence? Without observable things you have no data, no information therefore you cannot have any knowledge and hence no intelligence. And besides, what the hell is the god made of? and where does it reside? Why would it even care to make a universe if it knows everything already and has nothing to learn? Why would it care to worry about whether humans are nice or nasty to each other? Do we care about how nice or nasty ants are to each other?
Are we taking it upon ourselves to punish the wicked ant and reward the good ant?

Religious belief is bizzare.
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02-02-2016, 01:08 PM
RE: The Really Stupid Part of Creationism
[Image: Gods+Plan+C.png]

The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike
Excreta Tauri Sapientam Fulgeat (The excrement of the bull causes wisdom to flee)
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24-04-2016, 06:31 PM
RE: The Really Stupid Part of Creationism
As Mormon I have a problem with this.
I don't have any problem with this:
Eternal God organized Universe from eternal elements/chaos. Eternal God was organized once by his God.

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24-04-2016, 06:35 PM
RE: The Really Stupid Part of Creationism
(24-04-2016 06:31 PM)Alla Wrote:  As Mormon I have a problem with this.
I don't have any problem with this:
Eternal God organized Universe from eternal elements/chaos. Eternal God was organized once by his God.

Turtles.
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24-04-2016, 06:36 PM
RE: The Really Stupid Part of Creationism
I like to call it "eternal chain". Something that has no beginning and no end.

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24-04-2016, 08:23 PM
RE: The Really Stupid Part of Creationism
(24-04-2016 06:36 PM)Alla Wrote:  I like to call it "eternal chain". Something that has no beginning and no end.

It's called a viciously circular infinite regress. As the name might hint, they are logically untenable and should be avoided. They tell you nothing but require an infinite series of infinitely improbable deities. The only reason this wouldn't bother you is if you didn't have a single thought in your pretty little head.

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24-04-2016, 09:01 PM
RE: The Really Stupid Part of Creationism
One turtle on the top of another is not what LDS Doctrine teaches.
LDS Doctrine teaches that one God creates so many Gods that mortal men do not know this number.
God who creates this unknown number of Gods has His God who created unknown number of Gods.
So, God of this earth(world) procreates N-number of Gods, He has N-number of siblings who are Gods. His siblings have N-number of children who are also Gods.

According to LDS Doctrine correct picture with turtles would be this: imagine turtles without a number and on a top of each turtle and under each turtle there are turtles without a number.
"without a number" means so many that mortal men do not even know this number.

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24-04-2016, 09:09 PM
RE: The Really Stupid Part of Creationism
(24-04-2016 09:01 PM)Alla Wrote:  One turtle on the top of another is not what LDS Doctrine teaches.
LDS Doctrine teaches that one God creates so many Gods that mortal men do not know this number.
God who creates this unknown number of Gods has His God who created unknown number of Gods.
So, God of this earth(world) procreates N-number of Gods, He has N-number of siblings who are Gods. His siblings have N-number of children who are also Gods.

According to LDS Doctrine correct picture with turtles would be this: imagine turtles without a number and on a top of each turtle and under each turtle there are turtles without a number.
"without a number" means so many that mortal men do not even know this number.

So it's still turtles all the way down, but in your case you want to make it a vast chelonian cone balanced on its point.

Oh yeah. That's an improvement. Facepalm Not only is this a viciously circular infinite regress it's also a branching one.

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24-04-2016, 09:37 PM
RE: The Really Stupid Part of Creationism
So, you believe in absolute beginning. I see. I don't believe in absolute beginning

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25-04-2016, 01:17 AM
RE: The Really Stupid Part of Creationism
There are sealing rooms in the LDS Temples. In these rooms there are two giant mirrors facing one another.
When I stand between them I see my own image( in both mirrors) an infinite number of times. I BELIEVE in INFINITY
I believe that there is no the first God and there is no the last God.
I also believe that there is eternal matter - it was never created and it will never be destroyed. Gods use this matter to organize and to re-organize things and even worlds.
This is what LDS Doctrine teaches.

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