The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
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20-01-2015, 04:15 PM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
Altruism is an evolved trait.
Morality is subjective.

There are NO moral laws, much less eternal ones.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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20-01-2015, 04:31 PM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(20-01-2015 02:35 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-01-2015 02:17 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  You asserted something as a fact...(That the belief in intrinsic moral obligations doesn't predate religion) how did you come to that conclusion and what is your basis to make it?

Uhm, how would a religious belief (a belief in intrinsic moral obligations), predate a religious belief?

Gofish basically said everything I would of needed to in response.

You've just used an assertion as your answer for why you made an assertion. What makes you certain it's only a religious belief.. or even what do you mean by religious belief.. maybe you don't mean religious in such a strict manner but tin the loose manner like people saying sports fans are religious. It's just hard to tell with you when you put many presumptions to concepts you talk about.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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20-01-2015, 04:47 PM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(20-01-2015 03:53 PM)gofish! Wrote:  What are you asking? Are you asking me to prove that a belief in intrinsic moral obligations is a religious belief?

Uhm, because it's a teleological belief. Or in other words if you believe there are intrinsic moral obligations, you'd have to believe in world were such shits possible, where human beings are endowed with an intrinsic sense of purpose, directed towards the moral life, sort of like the way characters in a fucking story book are. Or in other words a religious worldview.
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20-01-2015, 04:54 PM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(20-01-2015 04:47 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-01-2015 03:53 PM)gofish! Wrote:  What are you asking? Are you asking me to prove that a belief in intrinsic moral obligations is a religious belief?

Uhm, because it's a teleological belief. Or in other words if you believe there are intrinsic moral obligations, you'd have to believe in world were such shits possible, where human beings are endowed with an intrinsic sense of purpose, directed towards the moral life, sort of like the way characters in a fucking story book are. Or in other words a religious worldview.

And I've told you in the past how there are people nowadays with these beliefs outside of religious contexts too. There has been people defending Moral Obligations and Objective morality as a innate universal scheme that aren't religious. There are some other metaphysical ideas like Integral Theory which aren't religious but have a moral and universal layered function idea that fits this.

But to the point.. you're presuming which came first. The idea of intrinsic moral obligations or humanity coming up with religious ideas. Because it SEEMS impossible to be a thing without religion to you doesn't make it so. You really aren't equipped to know what caused what in this line of thought.

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20-01-2015, 05:01 PM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(20-01-2015 04:54 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  ...

And I've told you in the past how there are people nowadays with these beliefs outside of religious contexts too. There has been people defending Moral Obligations and Objective morality as a innate universal scheme that aren't religious.
...

Yup. I said that in post #6 (which seems like a very long time ago).

But, then, I couldn't think of any Consider

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20-01-2015, 05:04 PM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
Tomasia, how do you define "intrinsic"?
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20-01-2015, 05:17 PM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(20-01-2015 02:35 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-01-2015 02:17 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  You asserted something as a fact...(That the belief in intrinsic moral obligations doesn't predate religion) how did you come to that conclusion and what is your basis to make it?

Uhm, how would a religious belief (a belief in intrinsic moral obligations), predate a religious belief?

You never took Anthropology 101 did you. Weeping

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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20-01-2015, 06:08 PM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(20-01-2015 04:54 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  And I've told you in the past how there are people nowadays with these beliefs outside of religious contexts too. There has been people defending Moral Obligations and Objective morality as a innate universal scheme that aren't religious. There are some other metaphysical ideas like Integral Theory which aren't religious but have a moral and universal layered function idea that fits this.

lol, if you're a person selling intrinsic moral obligations, and claiming you're not selling a religion, then you're not much different than those theists trying to tell me christianity is not a religion, it's a relationship.

But every once in while I do run across an atheist, stating that he believes in intrinsic moral obligations, but it doesn't take long before he recants, and acknowledge that he was confusing intrinsic with extrinsic.

As far as objective morality, that would be a bit of a different discussion, because there seems to be various non-believers advocating for it, without asserting the existence of any intrinsic moral obligations. But we can ignore this since it's not really pertinent here.

Trying to package intrinsic moral obligations, without appealing to a teleology doesn't work, it's like trying to sell me on a square circle. If you think you can make it fit, I would enjoy the shit out of watching you try. But if all you got is, hey I got some homies in China, manufacturing square circles, don't expect me to believe that shit.


Quote:But to the point.. you're presuming which came first. The idea of intrinsic moral obligations or humanity coming up with religious ideas. Because it SEEMS impossible to be a thing without religion to you doesn't make it so. You really aren't equipped to know what caused what in this line of thought.

lol, you're confused. It's not a question of what came first. Intrinsic moral obligation is a religious idea.
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20-01-2015, 06:20 PM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(20-01-2015 05:04 PM)Dahlia Wrote:  Tomasia, how do you define "intrinsic"?

intrinsic: belonging to the essential nature of a thing : occurring as a natural part of something.

synonymous with inherent, innate.

As opposed to extrinsic: not part of the essential nature of someone or something; coming or operating from outside.
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20-01-2015, 06:33 PM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(20-01-2015 06:08 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  But every once in while I do run across an atheist, stating that he believes in intrinsic moral obligations, but it doesn't take long before he recants, and acknowledge that he was confusing intrinsic with extrinsic.

Really ? Really ?
You claim to know a lot about atheists and what they think and that you "run across" one hell of a lot of atheists.

I think something is more than a bit bizarre here. Consider

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