The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
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31-01-2015, 11:03 AM
The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(31-01-2015 08:32 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(24-01-2015 11:59 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  But you're not even playing your own game anymore. You asked how these beliefs in "objective moral codes" have shaped society. I gave you an answer and you've tried to dismiss it with "but some religious people didn't support that stuff" which is fair, but they opposed the religious views and the popular opinion at the time. That's because morality is subjective. It changes over time.

No, that was not my response. My response was one that religious beliefs connected both the slave and slave owners, to a belief in higher principles binding on both parties. Creating a dynamic, which would be absent if this was not present.

Something that many slave owners were aware of, an aspect highlighted in my previous post, where slaveowners weren't particularly keen on converting slaves to Christianity, which would have gave them a capacity to pass moral judgements on them.

Religious beliefs fueled pro slavery agendas. Religious beliefs weren't necessary for opposition to slavery.

Keep reading my posts and address them in their entirety instead of tying to cherry pick what you want to try and critique (poorly that is).

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31-01-2015, 02:26 PM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(31-01-2015 09:03 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:Especially as our tribes became bigger, with improved transport and trade, societies started included may peoples from different races/cultures/religions etc.

These are not "tribes", they are not even communities. All the deep rootedness of these earlier conditions are absent. We're just folks with a handful of similar interest, that keeps us on congenial terms, just like our relationship with China and Saudi Arabia, or Russia, or Walmart's relationship with its suppliers. To imagine this relationship to be one of a "tribe", or even meaningful "community", is epitome of naivety.
Well, I don't know about your country, but my country does trade with many, many other countries.
My citizens of my country probably includes every ethinic race on the planet. Which is much different to how things were 100 or so years ago.
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01-02-2015, 08:29 AM (This post was last modified: 01-02-2015 09:02 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(31-01-2015 11:03 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Religious beliefs fueled pro slavery agendas. Religious beliefs weren't necessary for opposition to slavery.

Keep reading my posts and address them in their entirety instead of tying to cherry pick what you want to try and critique (poorly that is).

So you think people owned slaves for religious reasons? Do you think if these individuals were non-religious, they wouldn't have owned slaves? That being non-religious wouldn't have been counter productive to that cause?

Quote:Religious beliefs weren't necessary for opposition to slavery.

And none those opposers of slavery, believed the wrongness and injustice of it was subjectively wrong.
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01-02-2015, 08:42 AM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(01-02-2015 08:29 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(31-01-2015 11:03 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Religious beliefs fueled pro slavery agendas. Religious beliefs weren't necessary for opposition to slavery.

Keep reading my posts and address them in their entirety instead of tying to cherry pick what you want to try and critique (poorly that is).

So you think people owned slaves for religious reasons? Do you think if these individuals were non-religious, they wouldn't have owned slaves? That being non-religious wouldn't been counter productive to that cause?

He neither said nor implied that. Some people used the Bible to justify slavery.

Quote:
Quote:Religious beliefs weren't necessary for opposition to slavery.

And none those opposers of slavery, believed the wrongness and injustice of it was subjectively wrong.

Seriously? How could you possibly know that?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-02-2015, 08:42 AM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(31-01-2015 02:26 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Well, I don't know about your country, but my country does trade with many, many other countries.

And what does that mean? Other than you're trade partners with a variety of other countries. You think being trade partners, equates to these parties being part of the same tribe, the same community?


Quote:My citizens of my country probably includes every ethinic race on the planet. Which is much different to how things were 100 or so years ago.

I'm assuming you're of caucasian descent? I'm from the US, the emblem of the melting pot, but you think being a citizen, makes me a part of a community and a tribe with all other citizens of the country?

I already have a community, a tribe, which is composed of my religious folks, and my ethnic friends and family primarily. We already know these are the people who are most concerned about our well-being, who we turn to when things fails, or if we hit a rough patch, whose bonds are meaningful and real.

I'd wager my relationship as a citizen is no different than yours, but my belonging to real communities, doesn't allow me to buy your fictions that being merely a citizen or trade partner, makes me a part of a community or tribe with all those who hold the same moniker. We may even be on congenial terms, but our relationships are shallow and superficial, and amount to no real fellowship, or endearing ties.
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01-02-2015, 08:54 AM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(01-02-2015 08:42 AM)Chas Wrote:  He neither said nor implied that. Some people used the Bible to justify slavery.

And why do you think that is? Why did they have to justify their actions with the Bible?
If I wanted to own slaves for no other reason that the appeal of cheap labor, why would I need to justify my actions with the bible?

What you don't seem to perceive but what should be obvious, is that religions create a wall between ones own selfish desires, and the perception of higher moral obligations, and principles. Religious slave owners had to justify their actions within their religious beliefs, or risk being condemned by them. Why is this not apparent to you, and others here?

Quote:And none those opposers of slavery, believed the wrongness and injustice of it was subjectively wrong.

Because no one other than a handful of people believe in subjective morality, because most people, particularly in the past have long held a religious view of morality. In fact if we look at nearly any and all writings declaring the wrongness of slavery, you'll find appeals to the transcendent, to the sacred, to eternal or universal laws, beyond human creation.
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01-02-2015, 10:18 AM
The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(01-02-2015 08:29 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(31-01-2015 11:03 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Religious beliefs fueled pro slavery agendas. Religious beliefs weren't necessary for opposition to slavery.

Keep reading my posts and address them in their entirety instead of tying to cherry pick what you want to try and critique (poorly that is).

So you think people owned slaves for religious reasons? Do you think if these individuals were non-religious, they wouldn't have owned slaves? That being non-religious wouldn't have been counter productive to that cause?

Quote:Religious beliefs weren't necessary for opposition to slavery.

And none those opposers of slavery, believed the wrongness and injustice of it was subjectively wrong.

You're not addressing any of the other points I've raised and are instead chasing strawmen versions of your characterization of my points on slavery where slavery has not always been seen by the society of the time as immoral and used religious guidelines for "properly" treating their slaves.

Slavery going from not being immoral to being immoral is a demonstration of the subjective nature of morality.

Now, please address my previous points in my previous posts instead of cherry picking to make strawmen.

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01-02-2015, 10:20 AM
The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
No one said that the bible was the reason to have slaves, it was the set of guidelines for owning slaves. Which implied that owning other people is okay as long as you follow its rules.

People used religion to justify owning other people.

People used secular arguments for calling that an immoral and unethical action.

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01-02-2015, 10:21 AM
The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
Can you address posts 210, 220, and 221?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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01-02-2015, 10:25 AM
The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
And post 211

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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