The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
01-02-2015, 11:23 AM (This post was last modified: 01-02-2015 02:01 PM by Full Circle.)
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(01-02-2015 08:54 AM)‘Tomasia’ Wrote:  
(01-02-2015 08:42 AM)Chas Wrote:  He neither said nor implied that. Some people used the Bible to justify slavery.

And why do you think that is? Why did they have to justify their actions with the Bible?
If I wanted to own slaves for no other reason that the appeal of cheap labor, why would I need to justify my actions with the bible?

If you notice he said, “some” people, not all people. As an example during the US Civil War both sides claimed that God was on their side, “each side turned to the Bible to argue its cause”, the segregationists pointed to the Bible as confirmation of slavery as God-approved.
http://www.pbs.org/godinamerica/study-guide/three.html

Lincoln said it best;
"The will of God prevails. In great contests each party claims to act in accordance with the will of God. Both may be, and one must be, wrong. God cannot be for and against the same thing at the same time.”

(01-02-2015 08:54 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  What you don't seem to perceive but what should be obvious, is that religions create a wall between ones own selfish desires, and the perception of higher moral obligations, and principles. Religious slave owners had to justify their actions within their religious beliefs, or risk being condemned by them. Why is this not apparent to you, and others here?


(01-02-2015 08:54 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Because no one other than a handful of people believe in subjective morality, because most people, particularly in the past have long held a religious view of morality. In fact if we look at nearly any and all writings declaring the wrongness of slavery, you'll find appeals to the transcendent, to the sacred, to eternal or universal laws, beyond human creation.

You cannot win the argument that the Bible does not support slavery. It is implicitly condoned.

It has been often argued in this forum that one of the Ten Commandments should have read “Thou shalt not own slaves”, but alas the Bible says no such thing.

Apologists have long argued and performed some amazing feats of acrobatics to deny this very point. You can’t be the first, just the latest. And all have been wrong and will continue to be wrong until such time as New Revelations or the Second Coming or a 3rd Stone Tablet is found opposing slavery. Drinking Beverage

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-02-2015, 11:58 AM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(01-02-2015 08:42 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:My citizens of my country probably includes every ethinic race on the planet. Which is much different to how things were 100 or so years ago.

I'm assuming you're of caucasian descent? I'm from the US, the emblem of the melting pot, but you think being a citizen, makes me a part of a community and a tribe with all other citizens of the country?

I already have a community, a tribe, which is composed of my religious folks, and my ethnic friends and family primarily. We already know these are the people who are most concerned about our well-being, who we turn to when things fails, or if we hit a rough patch, whose bonds are meaningful and real.

I'd wager my relationship as a citizen is no different than yours, but my belonging to real communities, doesn't allow me to buy your fictions that being merely a citizen or trade partner, makes me a part of a community or tribe with all those who hold the same moniker. We may even be on congenial terms, but our relationships are shallow and superficial, and amount to no real fellowship, or endearing ties.
As a governed democratic nation, the laws of our land must be inclusive of all that are governed. Laws of an exclusive nature for example, laws that favour one religion over the others, or one skin colour over the others, or one culture over the others, are unacceptable.

Each religious sect (sub-tribe) represents a faction within the bigger tribe of the nation. Religion is an exclusive group, pitting brother against brother

Quote:Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn

“ ‘a man against his father,

a daughter against her mother,

a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—

a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’c

“Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

Globalisation and seculariity brings us together, united, religion draws a line in the sand, creates conflict and separation.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-02-2015, 01:39 PM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(01-02-2015 11:23 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(01-02-2015 08:54 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  And why do you think that is? Why did they have to justify their actions with the Bible?
If I wanted to own slaves for no other reason that the appeal of cheap labor, why would I need to justify my actions with the bible?

If you notice he said, “some” people, not all people. As an example during the US Civil War both sides claimed that God was on their side, “each side turned to the Bible to argue its cause”, the segregationists pointed to the Bible as confirmation of slavery as God-approved.
http://www.pbs.org/godinamerica/study-guide/three.html

Lincoln said it best;
"The will of God prevails. In great contests each party claims to act in accordance with the will of God. Both may be, and one must be, wrong. God cannot be for and against the same thing at the same time.”

(01-02-2015 08:54 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  What you don't seem to perceive but what should be obvious, is that religions create a wall between ones own selfish desires, and the perception of higher moral obligations, and principles. Religious slave owners had to justify their actions within their religious beliefs, or risk being condemned by them. Why is this not apparent to you, and others here?


(01-02-2015 08:42 AM)Chas Wrote:  And none those opposers of slavery, believed the wrongness and injustice of it was subjectively wrong.

(01-02-2015 08:54 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Because no one other than a handful of people believe in subjective morality, because most people, particularly in the past have long held a religious view of morality. In fact if we look at nearly any and all writings declaring the wrongness of slavery, you'll find appeals to the transcendent, to the sacred, to eternal or universal laws, beyond human creation.

You cannot win the argument that the Bible does not support slavery. It is implicitly condoned.

It has been often argued in this forum that one of the Ten Commandments should have read “Thou shalt not own slaves”, but alas the Bible says no such thing.

Apologists have long argued and performed some amazing feats of acrobatics to deny this very point. You can’t be the first, just the latest. And all have been wrong and will continue to be wrong until such time as New Revelations or the Second Coming or a 3rd Stone Tablet is found opposing slavery. Drinking Beverage

FC, could you fix the quote in that post? I didn't say the idiotic statement that you accidentally attributed to me. No

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-02-2015, 02:02 PM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(01-02-2015 01:39 PM)Chas Wrote:  FC, could you fix the quote in that post? I didn't say the idiotic statement that you accidentally attributed to me. No

Sorry, sometimes quoting someone’s response to a previous comment can get convoluted. My bad. Fixed.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Full Circle's post
01-02-2015, 04:47 PM (This post was last modified: 01-02-2015 04:59 PM by pablo.)
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
If you are a theist, the religious components of your moral beliefs are:
Someone told you that without some unseen, unknowable force, you'd be an immoral, murderous beast.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-02-2015, 07:32 PM
The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(01-02-2015 04:47 PM)pablo Wrote:  If you are a theist, the religious components of your moral beliefs are:
Someone told you that without some unseen, unknowable force, you'd be an immoral, murderous beast.

Making them amoral at best if all they are doing is following someone or something else's commandments on moral actions.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-02-2015, 08:22 PM (This post was last modified: 01-02-2015 08:37 PM by Free.)
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(18-01-2015 07:08 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The two part Moral Questions.

In a Letter from a Birmingham Jail, Rev. King speaks of the injustice of his people, as a violation of an eternal law.

For those who don’t believe in such a law, where do you think such beliefs came from?

Many people also believe that we have intrinsic moral obligations, and responsibilities. That we are endowed with a moral purpose. That the rightness and wrongness of certain things are violation of something sacred and eternal.

Would you say all these beliefs are merely a product of religious indoctrincations? That without religion we wouldn’t be compelled to believe these things?

The second part of the question is this.

Do you think that most moral statements of communities, of people, both historically and in the present, most statements protesting injustice, and evil, have this sort of understanding in the background, of eternal moral laws, of intrinsic moral obligations, that have been violated? That they tend to presuppose such a reality? Particularly in consideration that most societies and people have historically been religious.

(keep in mind that this is a question of beliefs regarding morality, rather than actual moral behavior)

We are a finite species existing in a probable infinite universe and you somehow think that there is something sacred and eternal?

A finite species adhering to something eternal? What the fuck would be the point? Our entire species is destined to become extinct someday so what good will this so-called "eternal" shit do?

I could understand it if the human race was eternal, and then subscribing to some eternal morality, but since we are finite then anything eternal would be wasting its time and resources on a fucking species that's going to die out anyways.

What we, as a species, have in regards to morality is the product of a finite existence's natural sense of self preservation. That is the root of all sentient beings; to preserve ourselves in an effort to maintain life.

Our sense of morality is all based upon the ethic of reciprocity in which we will do no harm to anyone because we understand that particular harm from our own personal experience. Because we have natural empathy, we create emotional connections to others insomuch as we wish no harm to anyone that we wouldn't also want done to ourselves.

We preserve ourselves through the ethic of reciprocity. We control our pain and pleasure- be it physical or emotional- through the ethic of reciprocity as a means of self preservation.

Therefore, our morals are inherent, not taught by beliefs, and certainly not anything eternal.

Having problems with your computer? Visit our Free Tech Support thread for help!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Free's post
02-02-2015, 01:26 PM (This post was last modified: 02-02-2015 01:33 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(01-02-2015 10:18 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You're not addressing any of the other points I've raised and are instead chasing strawmen versions of your characterization of my points on slavery where slavery has not always been seen by the society of the time as immoral and used religious guidelines for "properly" treating their slaves.

Slavery going from not being immoral to being immoral is a demonstration of the subjective nature of morality.

Now, please address my previous points in my previous posts instead of cherry picking to make strawmen.

Your points continue from a series of erroneous assumptions regarding mine. I'm not arguing whether or not morality is subjective or objective. All you need to acknowledge is that these parties are arguing about what is moral, are arguing what they believe is objectively moral.

All you need to acknowledge is that there is a bit of a difference between two parties who believe morality is subjective and arguing about what is or what is not moral, and two parties who believe morality is objective, arguing about the same thing. If you can understand the subtle differences here, then you'll likely get a better picture of my point.

I went ahead and looked through the series of post you mentioned, and I didn't really see anything to address or even argue with you over,.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-02-2015, 03:23 PM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(02-02-2015 01:26 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  All you need to acknowledge is that there is a bit of a difference between two parties who believe morality is subjective and arguing about what is or what is not moral, and two parties who believe morality is objective, arguing about the same thing. If you can understand the subtle differences here, then you'll likely get a better picture of my point.
Because objective morality is not discoverable then argue is all people can do regarding this belief system.

Because subjective morality is based on the opinions of each individual then again argue is all people can do regarding this belief system.

The real problem happens when people look to use force to get others to conform to their own moral beliefs .
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-02-2015, 03:32 PM
The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(02-02-2015 01:26 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(01-02-2015 10:18 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You're not addressing any of the other points I've raised and are instead chasing strawmen versions of your characterization of my points on slavery where slavery has not always been seen by the society of the time as immoral and used religious guidelines for "properly" treating their slaves.

Slavery going from not being immoral to being immoral is a demonstration of the subjective nature of morality.

Now, please address my previous points in my previous posts instead of cherry picking to make strawmen.

Your points continue from a series of erroneous assumptions regarding mine. I'm not arguing whether or not morality is subjective or objective. All you need to acknowledge is that these parties are arguing about what is moral, are arguing what they believe is objectively moral.

All you need to acknowledge is that there is a bit of a difference between two parties who believe morality is subjective and arguing about what is or what is not moral, and two parties who believe morality is objective, arguing about the same thing. If you can understand the subtle differences here, then you'll likely get a better picture of my point.

I went ahead and looked through the series of post you mentioned, and I didn't really see anything to address or even argue with you over,.

Then you either didn't read my posts or understand them, or both.

Your only argument seems to be that some people have done moral things in spite of their religion, while ignoring those immoral actions committed in the name of their religion by saying that there were some within their religion who opposed those actions.

There is plenty in my other posts to be answered. Questions specifically regarding your entire premise. Please address them.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: