The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
02-02-2015, 04:56 PM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(02-02-2015 01:26 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(01-02-2015 10:18 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You're not addressing any of the other points I've raised and are instead chasing strawmen versions of your characterization of my points on slavery where slavery has not always been seen by the society of the time as immoral and used religious guidelines for "properly" treating their slaves.

Slavery going from not being immoral to being immoral is a demonstration of the subjective nature of morality.

Now, please address my previous points in my previous posts instead of cherry picking to make strawmen.

Your points continue from a series of erroneous assumptions regarding mine. I'm not arguing whether or not morality is subjective or objective. All you need to acknowledge is that these parties are arguing about what is moral, are arguing what they believe is objectively moral.

All you need to acknowledge is that there is a bit of a difference between two parties who believe morality is subjective and arguing about what is or what is not moral, and two parties who believe morality is objective, arguing about the same thing. If you can understand the subtle differences here, then you'll likely get a better picture of my point.

I went ahead and looked through the series of post you mentioned, and I didn't really see anything to address or even argue with you over,.

How about you tell us what exactly what those "subtle differences" are ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Bucky Ball's post
03-02-2015, 05:52 AM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(02-02-2015 03:32 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(02-02-2015 01:26 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Your points continue from a series of erroneous assumptions regarding mine. I'm not arguing whether or not morality is subjective or objective. All you need to acknowledge is that these parties are arguing about what is moral, are arguing what they believe is objectively moral.

All you need to acknowledge is that there is a bit of a difference between two parties who believe morality is subjective and arguing about what is or what is not moral, and two parties who believe morality is objective, arguing about the same thing. If you can understand the subtle differences here, then you'll likely get a better picture of my point.

I went ahead and looked through the series of post you mentioned, and I didn't really see anything to address or even argue with you over,.

Then you either didn't read my posts or understand them, or both.

Your only argument seems to be that some people have done moral things in spite of their religion, while ignoring those immoral actions committed in the name of their religion by saying that there were some within their religion who opposed those actions.

There is plenty in my other posts to be answered. Questions specifically regarding your entire premise. Please address them.

That's not my premise though. I've never ignored the seemingly immoral actions of self professing religious types. Nor did I try and excuse them by mentioning religious types who opposed them. My premise is founded on this basic idea of opposition, and how it's understood in one dynamic, particularly a dynamic that assumes there are intrinsic moral obligations, objective morals, in comparison to parties who don't belive theses things.

My arguments rests on the entire basis of that opposition, the underlying beliefs common to both sides of the argument, and not in favor of one side over the other.

If you don't understand this, than you've assumed a wrong premise.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-02-2015, 05:56 AM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(03-02-2015 05:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-02-2015 03:32 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Then you either didn't read my posts or understand them, or both.

Your only argument seems to be that some people have done moral things in spite of their religion, while ignoring those immoral actions committed in the name of their religion by saying that there were some within their religion who opposed those actions.

There is plenty in my other posts to be answered. Questions specifically regarding your entire premise. Please address them.

That's not my premise though. I've never ignored the seemingly immoral actions of self professing religious types. Nor did I try and excuse them by mentioning religious types who opposed them. My premise is founded on this basic idea of opposition, and how it's understood in one dynamic, particularly a dynamic that assumes there are intrinsic moral obligations, objective morals, in comparison to parties who don't belive theses things.

My arguments rests on the entire basis of that opposition, the underlying beliefs common to both sides of the argument, and not in favor of one side over the other.

If you don't understand this, than you've assumed a wrong premise.

What EXACTLY is your premise ? List the steps of your "argument".

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-02-2015, 06:00 AM
The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(03-02-2015 05:52 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-02-2015 03:32 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Then you either didn't read my posts or understand them, or both.

Your only argument seems to be that some people have done moral things in spite of their religion, while ignoring those immoral actions committed in the name of their religion by saying that there were some within their religion who opposed those actions.

There is plenty in my other posts to be answered. Questions specifically regarding your entire premise. Please address them.

That's not my premise though. I've never ignored the seemingly immoral actions of self professing religious types. Nor did I try and excuse them by mentioning religious types who opposed them. My premise is founded on this basic idea of opposition, and how it's understood in one dynamic, particularly a dynamic that assumes there are intrinsic moral obligations, objective morals, in comparison to parties who don't belive theses things.

My arguments rests on the entire basis of that opposition, the underlying beliefs common to both sides of the argument, and not in favor of one side over the other.

If you don't understand this, than you've assumed a wrong premise.

There are a lot of words in this post, but you've said precisely nothing and responded to no points or questions posed by me.

I'll stop wasting my time with you now as you are either trolling or severely incapable of intelligent discourse.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-02-2015, 06:56 AM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(03-02-2015 06:00 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  There are a lot of words in this post, but you've said precisely nothing and responded to no points or questions posed by me.

The only questions you've raised are ones directed at some argument that I never made, the were irrelevant to any point that I've raised. In fact for the most part they seem to lack anything for me to argue with you about.

If you think that's not the case, please show me this, provide just one question you think, is not based on some misunderstanding, or is pertinent to something that I've said.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-02-2015, 07:18 AM
The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(22-01-2015 08:20 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  "The same way atheists would argue we’re all born atheists. How would other organisms, conceptualize and distinguish between concepts such as eternal vs non-eternal, intrinsic vs extrinsic? Obligations from non-obligations? "

Not all atheists would say animals are born atheists.

You still haven not explained to be how and when this belief in an "eternal moral code" began or why it began with humans.

"No one said they (animals) lacked morality."

"All true, but I’m not sure what you think this means for what I’ve argued so far. But it should be noted that animals don’t just behave morally, they behave all sorts of ways, engage in actions, deemed evil, and immoral if done so by humans."

All animals have behaviors, I don't know what your justification is for trying to tease apart the actions and behaviors of humans from other animals.

"I said person 2 did it to curry favor with a girl he was trying to sleep with. I’m not sure why you wanted to assume an additional level of intent with him, at the same time not being as generous to person 1. Assuming person 2’s only reason was to curry favor with this girl, then I’m guessing you would say he acted amorally.

It’s still not very clear to me what standard you base your judgements of amoral and moral on. In the person 3 example, I implied he fed the poor, out of fear, fear of them going around robbing people, but you stated he acted morally.

You also stated: “I do good things because it makes me feel good”. But i’m guessing the good things you do are acts you consider “moral”, rather than amoral?

My assumption is that, the difference between amoral and moral acts for you, is that moral acts are inspired by empathy, and compassion (altruistic reasons), rather than purely out of fear of death, or personal harm, or economic benefit, or a desire for prestige, or brownie points with a girl you like. Is this what you’re suggesting?"


Which is why I have said that morality is subjective. It exists to the individual and is based on the person's internal arguments on the good vs bad of any given action or behavior. The only way to ensure an action or behavior is amoral, is to do it because someone told you. You seem to suggest that there is an objective standard by which morality can be tested.

I outlined morality and my further definitions of it in my subsequent posts.




But if you are not suggesting that morality is indeed "eternal" and "obligatory" then you will need to make it more clear to me what the purpose of this discussion is by answering these question I have posed to you before.

In response to this:
"If you continue to concentrate on what different people find good, right, or wrong, you'll be avoiding the point being made. The OP is not about this. It's not about what is good, but the very idea that we are obligated to live in accordance to it, to be moral, to do what is good, what is just, etc..."

in post #77, you said the above, which is suggestive of the idea that morality is defined as a commandment to do good, instead of it being an altruistic behavior.

Ergo, it sounds as if you have defined morality in such a way so as to make the existence of a god necessary for morality to exist. Is this the case?


What reason do you have to think that there is an "eternal moral code" or that this "eternal moral code" is uniquely human? Or that is something all of humanity has had during its civilized era?

What relevance does it hold in how it has influenced society?

For instance, another point I made that seemed to not be responded to, is that we have believed all manner of incorrect things throughout history that clearly influenced and shaped society. That doesn't make them correct, or even useful (there is a reason that the phrase "4 corners of the Earth' exists, and it is because we thought the Earth had corners, i.e. that it was flat).

To elaborate further, Dawkins talks about an example of a moral conundrum in "The God Delusion" when a moral scenario is posed to a group of westerners and to an isolated South American Tribe (one that does not worship a religion and has never done so).

Both groups responded in remarkably similar ways. Indicating that no religious underpinnings were necessary to formulate a moral decision similar to that of people within a western society.

Quite a few questions you avoided in this post for instance.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-02-2015, 07:29 AM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
I've figured since I have some time now, I'll go over the several post you mentioned earlier, where you raised a series of questions.


Post 210
(03-02-2015 07:18 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  I'll ask again. What relevance is there to humans having had incorrect beliefs that have shaped society? We explored the oceans and land even when we thought the Earth was flat. What does this demonstrate beyond our limited knowledge backwards in time?

Well, the only thing being explored here is how these supposed incorrect beliefs about morality, shapes our perceptions about morality. How our moral disputes, our moral arguments, protests, are shaped by these supposed incorrect underlying assumptions.

Quote:You also never did tell me how you know morality is unique to humans or that this "eternal moral code" originated with the beginning of the human genus ( Homo ).

I don’t know, maybe they did, maybe they didn’t. I have no answer for you regarding this question, perhaps they didn’t originate in the human genus. For all practical concerns, you can assume that I lack a belief here.

Post 211
Quote:You're the one who claimed this "eternal moral code" originated with humanity. I want to know where this claim comes from and how you substantiate it.

Yes, at one point I did imply that, but I also stated in post 185, that the question was an entirely separate one, than the ones relating to this post. It was irrelevant, slightly off the cuff. I could very well be wrong about this incorrect belief originating in humans. Either way it makes no difference here. And as per the rules outlined in post 185, such questions are to be ignored, for this very reason.

Quote:That's because it's all subjective. It is better when we take the lessons we've learned, and apply them to better morals instead of those paddled by religions.

I’m not arguing that morality is not subjective. All i’m trying to show, is that there is a difference between parties who believe morality is objective, that there are intrinsic moral obligations, arguing about what is moral, than parties who don’t believe this arguing about what is moral. This is the only thing you need to acknowledge. Something I illustrated in my analogy to a law court.

Post 220

Quote:People don't do good because of their religion. They do good in spite of it.

How about bad? Can the same be said here? That they do bad in spite of it?

Post 221

Quote:You ask people how these beliefs have shaped society, it's not really relevant that you don't like the negative impact and want to justify them by arguing for what you think are positives.

No, i never tried to justify the negative impact, by arguing for the positives. This was never my point.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-02-2015, 07:53 AM
The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
Your point is unclear and seems largely absent. For instance, when we point out examples for the negative impacts of religious "morals" on society, you try to rationalize them out of existence by saying that some have done good in spite of their religion.

A good man left to his own devices will do good. A bad man will do bad. But if you want a good man to do a bad thing, give him religion.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-02-2015, 07:53 AM
The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
You've also yet to acknowledge that one can't be a moral actor if all you're doing is following the commandments of another being under the assumption it is moral. That is (at best) amoral.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-02-2015, 12:40 PM
The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
This thread is suspiciously quiet....

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: