The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
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08-02-2015, 07:08 AM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(03-02-2015 07:53 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Your point is unclear and seems largely absent. For instance, when we point out examples for the negative impacts of religious "morals" on society, you try to rationalize them out of existence by saying that some have done good in spite of their religion.

This never occurred. I never tried to rationalize out negative consequences with seemingly positive ones.

The thing I'm talking about is what underlies the very concept of justification, whether by slave owners or abolitionist.

Here's a simple question: Why do you think slave owners needed to justify their actions with their religious belief?

Quote:A good man left to his own devices will do good. A bad man will do bad. But if you want a good man to do a bad thing, give him religion.

If your ditty here is true, would it also be true that if you wanted a bad man to do a good thing, give him religion?
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08-02-2015, 07:18 AM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(03-02-2015 07:53 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You've also yet to acknowledge that one can't be a moral actor if all you're doing is following the commandments of another being under the assumption it is moral. That is (at best) amoral.


Well, first of all I'm still not too sure as to what makes an action amoral, compared to moral, for you. So it's hard for me to decipher what you subjectively define this as. In fact when asked for a link to a secular moral philosophy, that aligns with your beliefs, where intentions are the decisive factor, you were unable to do so.

Secondly for all intended purposes we can assume a consequentialist moral philosophy, where intentions are irrelevant. So your claim that it would be at best be amoral, does not apply, to anyone other than yourself.
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08-02-2015, 07:24 AM
The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(08-02-2015 07:08 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(03-02-2015 07:53 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Your point is unclear and seems largely absent. For instance, when we point out examples for the negative impacts of religious "morals" on society, you try to rationalize them out of existence by saying that some have done good in spite of their religion.

This never occurred. I never tried to rationalize out negative consequences with seemingly positive ones.

The thing I'm talking about is what underlies the very concept of justification, whether by slave owners or abolitionist.

Here's a simple question: Why do you think slave owners needed to justify their actions with their religious belief?

Quote:A good man left to his own devices will do good. A bad man will do bad. But if you want a good man to do a bad thing, give him religion.

If your ditty here is true, would it also be true that if you wanted a bad man to do a good thing, give him religion?

When you tried to imply that religious views were used to oppose religion, you're trying to justify a religious negative with what you think is a religious positive. While ignoring secular objections to the need of religion at all in order to oppose owning humans.

Slave owners used the bible to justify their actions of owning slaves. The why is irrelevant but likely centers on greed. They felt divinely justified in owning slaves.

As for my ditty, this is why ACTIONS aren't the point, it's people. People are either moral, immoral, or amoral. If given religious "morals" and told to follow them under the assumption that they are moral, the PERSON is amoral and the morality of the action is assumed by them to be moral, regardless of whether it would be or not if viewed from their own internal moral definition.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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08-02-2015, 07:28 AM
The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(08-02-2015 07:18 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(03-02-2015 07:53 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You've also yet to acknowledge that one can't be a moral actor if all you're doing is following the commandments of another being under the assumption it is moral. That is (at best) amoral.


Well, first of all I'm still not too sure as to what makes an action amoral, compared to moral, for you. So it's hard for me to decipher what you subjectively define this as. In fact when asked for a link to a secular moral philosophy, that aligns with your beliefs, where intentions are the decisive factor, you were unable to do so.

Secondly for all intended purposes we can assume a consequentialist moral philosophy, where intentions are irrelevant. So your claim that it would be at best be amoral, does not apply, to anyone other than yourself.

A PERSON is moral or amoral or immoral. An amoral person can't evaluate the morality of their actions because they are doing it and assuming that it is moral because of its source.

You can either agree with everything someone says or disagree with everything someone says, either way you never have to think again.

This is why the actor is amoral, because they have become a mindless religious drone to the "morals" of religion. The only thought the religious tend to have about their religious morality is to try and defend and justify it, but not to criticize it.

The difference in your latter point is that I think and worry about my actions. I make moral choices because I have considered the consequences and don't simply follow rules handed to me by a self-proclaimed authority.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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08-02-2015, 07:38 AM
The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
And there is one question I've asked several times that you've never responded to. What significance do you think these incorrect beliefs hold?

We believed the Earth to be flat for quite some time and still were able to explore its surface, but that didn't validate the idea itself. So what about religious "morality" in this sense? The possibility that humans have incorrectly believed in objective morals and have followed religious rules, is important because....?

It's significant because...?

It doesn't validate religion, so what is your interest and purpose here with this topic?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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08-02-2015, 12:26 PM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(08-02-2015 07:24 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Slave owners used the bible to justify their actions of owning slaves. The why is irrelevant but likely centers on greed. They felt divinely justified in owning slaves.

But why conceal the center of it? Why not just openly do it for the central reasons. Because of the free and inexpensive labor, the return on investment, all the fortunes to be made from it. Why lie to yourself, and to others, concealing this very thing, by appealing to religion?
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08-02-2015, 12:31 PM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(08-02-2015 07:38 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  And there is one question I've asked several times that you've never responded to. What significance do you think these incorrect beliefs hold?

I don't know. What if we could advocate for our personal greed, without being ashamed of it, would that result in anything significant? I don't know.
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08-02-2015, 12:38 PM
The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
You respond, but you don't really seem to answer questions.

Slave owners used religion to justify their owning of slaves. Do you understand the difference between saying "I own slaves because of the bible" and "I own slaves because I want to and the bible condones it, in fact it gives instructions for properly treating slaves so it is okay as far as God and the bible are concerned."

Do you see the difference here?

What is the purpose of this thread? Because I don't believe it is simple genuine inquiry, your responses and attempts to justify religious immorality seem to imply you've some sort of agenda.

You've not acknowledged the amoral issue either.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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08-02-2015, 03:15 PM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(08-02-2015 12:38 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Slave owners used religion to justify their owning of slaves. Do you understand the difference between saying "I own slaves because of the bible" and "I own slaves because I want to and the bible condones it, in fact it gives instructions for properly treating slaves so it is okay as far as God and the bible are concerned."

Do you see the difference here?


No, i do see the difference here. That one's justification, is not necessarily the same as one's motivation. Slave owners would fit into the latter category, "I want to own slaves and the bible condones it."

But you seem to miss the question. Why do they need the bible to condone what they wanted in the first place? Why not just do it because they want to, regardless of what the bible has to say on that matter?


Quote:What is the purpose of this thread?
Because I don't believe it is simple genuine inquiry, your responses and attempts to justify religious immorality seem to imply you've some sort of agenda.

No, it's primarily to explore the questions.

Quote:You've not acknowledged the amoral issue either.

You already stated that morality is subjective, as a result, you and I are likely to have differing definitions and concepts of what it means for something to be moral or amoral, and are unlikely to find any agreed upon concepts here. If you want to label certain actions as amoral or moral, that's totally up to you. I don't see any reason to argue this, and we'll likely get nowhere with it.
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08-02-2015, 03:33 PM (This post was last modified: 08-02-2015 03:40 PM by TheBeardedDude.)
The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(08-02-2015 03:15 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(08-02-2015 12:38 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Slave owners used religion to justify their owning of slaves. Do you understand the difference between saying "I own slaves because of the bible" and "I own slaves because I want to and the bible condones it, in fact it gives instructions for properly treating slaves so it is okay as far as God and the bible are concerned."

Do you see the difference here?


No, i do see the difference here. That one's justification, is not necessarily the same as one's motivation. Slave owners would fit into the latter category, "I want to own slaves and the bible condones it."

But you seem to miss the question. Why do they need the bible to condone what they wanted in the first place? Why not just do it because they want to, regardless of what the bible has to say on that matter?


Quote:What is the purpose of this thread?
Because I don't believe it is simple genuine inquiry, your responses and attempts to justify religious immorality seem to imply you've some sort of agenda.

No, it's primarily to explore the questions.

Quote:You've not acknowledged the amoral issue either.

You already stated that morality is subjective, as a result, you and I are likely to have differing definitions and concepts of what it means for something to be moral or amoral, and are unlikely to find any agreed upon concepts here. If you want to label certain actions as amoral or moral, that's totally up to you. I don't see any reason to argue this, and we'll likely get nowhere with it.

Why use the bible to condone slavery? Because they feel divinely authorized to do something that they wouldn't want done to them. It's the notion of "making a good man do a bad thing" I kept saying that you don't seem to have understood.

We have largely gotten nowhere because you dodge questions. On the one hand, you imply it doesn't matter if morality is objective or subjective, now you're using it as an excuse to say that there is no point in arguing because of how we've each defined morality.

I'll put it this way, the entirety of the thread is based on a complete failure to acknowledge one simple fact, there is no religious component to morality.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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