The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
18-01-2015, 09:19 AM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(18-01-2015 08:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-01-2015 08:01 AM)Dom Wrote:  It's an instinct - survival of the species. We are herd animals - we live in groups.

It is not beneficial to harm your group. They do well, you do well.

Individual groups add their own flavor to create sets of morals, and these "flavors" are taught to children and become ingrained.

Like with everything else - some are endowed with more and some with less.

Religion has nothing to do with it, aside of consisting of tons of differing groups.


You're making the same mistake as Chas did earlier. You conflating moral behavior and moral beliefs. My OP was about beliefs about morality, not about actual moral behavior.

I am not conflating them. We have innate evolved feelings of empathy and fair play; it is upon these that we base our beliefs. Those beliefs are both internally created and learned from society. It's not complicated.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-01-2015, 09:36 AM (This post was last modified: 18-01-2015 10:29 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(18-01-2015 09:14 AM)Chas Wrote:  "belief in an eternal moral law" comes from erroneous thinking.

But not necessarily religious indoctrination? And not necessarily delusional beliefs either? Just erroneous thinking.

Would this also apply to a belief in a creator God, that we can say that it's just erroneous thinking. Or does belief in a creator God, require religious indoctrination, unlike belief in an eternal moral law?

Quote:Intrinsic obligations? Endowed from where?

I don't know. If such obligations were in fact intrinsic, were endowed, then I would assume it would be by whatever forces we arose from, that the had the capacities to make us with intrinsic moral obligations, and endow us with a moral purpose.

Quote:No, they are also the misfiring of other evolved brain/mind functions such as attributing intentionality.

Could we say the same of belief in a creator God (not necessarily specific to any religion)? Let's assume I was a product of this misfiring, I was led to believe there is an eternal moral law. I would think it would be reasonable to assume based on this, that the forces at play in the creation of such a thing, that convey to us a sense of moral direction, were concerned enough about our predicament to create such a thing.

Rather than a delusional belief here, would we just be dealing with a misfiring, that resulted in holding an erroneous belief?

Quote:Probably. I suggest you read about evolutionary psychology.

I don't think there's a great deal of work by evolutionary psychologist regarding the development of moral beliefs (rather than behavior), that explores the transitions from a religious view of morality, to a secular one. Though there are some works by philosophers such as Alsdair Macintyre who take on such an endeavor.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-01-2015, 09:46 AM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(18-01-2015 09:16 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  You seem to be denying the religious component of those beliefs all together, even though you likely believe that such beliefs are false.

They LEARNED from their cultures what they name as the "religious beliefs" just as you do. "Indoctrination" may or may not be the appropriate term.

(18-01-2015 09:16 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  What is interesting, and surprising for me is the fact, that you're reluctant to relegate beliefs in an eternal moral law, as you do God beliefs in general, to be equivalent to beliefs in the tooth fairy, heaven, and talking snakes. You seem reluctant to label such beliefs as delusional, as you would other religious beliefs. You appeal to culture in a way that you wouldn't in regards to other religious beliefs.

YOU attempt to corner people. as that's the way you have learned to dismiss and trivialize non-believers, and ridicule them. There are no "eternal moral laws" as have been easily demonstrated here, and which YOU AVOIDED addressing, per your usual.

(18-01-2015 09:16 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I honestly find this surprising, it went against my expectations for what the responses would be, in an interesting way. I'm confused as to why this is. Why a belief in an eternal moral law, is treated as something different, than others religious beliefs that are often deemed as delusional, and a product of religious indoctrination.

The hesitation is that YOU introduced "indoctrination" which is (or could be) an over-simplification. Read nothing further into it.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-01-2015, 10:27 AM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(18-01-2015 09:46 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  YOU attempt to corner people. as that's the way you have learned to dismiss and trivialize non-believers, and ridicule them. There are no "eternal moral laws" as have been easily demonstrated here, and which YOU AVOIDED addressing, per your usual.

You seem to do this quite frequently. If my OP was written to argue for the existence of eternal moral laws, to convince you and others of such a thing, then you would be justified in accusing me of avoiding addressing this.

My OP was written to explore a particular question, regarding how such beliefs entered our imaginations in the first place. In fact my OP benefits from the fact, of assuming that an eternal moral law does not exist. And it's important that you keep this in mind, before accusing me of avoiding an argument, for a claim that I didn't make here.

Quote:The hesitation is that YOU introduced "indoctrination" which is (or could be) an over-simplification. Read nothing further into it.

Indoctrination is the accusation I see leveled at nearly every other religious belief, so I thought it would be the same regarding beliefs about eternal laws. I find it surprising that beliefs in an eternal moral law, are not being treated in such a way. That the concept is not one easily categorized as a common indoctrinated beliefs, and delusional ones.

The responses resulted in a reversal of my expectations. A very interesting reversal, which I'm just trying to get my head around, and comprehend as to why.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-01-2015, 10:30 AM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(18-01-2015 09:36 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-01-2015 09:14 AM)Chas Wrote:  "belief in an eternal moral law" comes from erroneous thinking.

But not necessarily religious indoctrination? And not necessarily delusional beliefs either? Just erroneous thinking.

'Erroneous thinking' encompasses those others. Call it non-rational thinking.

Quote:Would this also apply to a belief in a creator God, that we can say that it's just erroneous thinking.

Yes.

Quote:Or does belief in a creator God, require religious indoctrination, unlike belief in an eternal moral law?

No.

Quote:
Quote:Intrinsic obligations? Endowed from where?

I don't know. If such obligations were in fact intrinsic, were endowed, than I would assume it would be by whatever forces we arose from, that the had the capacities to make us with intrinsic moral obligations, and endow us with a moral purpose.

I'm not even sure what you mean by these terms; apparently you don't either.

Quote:
Quote:No, they are also the misfiring of other evolved brain/mind functions such as attributing intentionality.

Could we say the same of belief in a creator God (not necessarily specific to any religion)?

Yes.

Quote:Let's assume I was product of this misfiring, I was led to believe there is an eternal moral law. I would think it would be reasonable to assume based on this, that the forces at play in the creation of such a thing, that convey to us a sense of moral direction, were concerned enough about our predicament to create such a thing.

I can't even parse that.

Quote:Rather than a delusional belief here, would we just be dealing with a misfiring, that resulted in holding an erroneous belief?

Delusional beliefs are erroneous, and are certainly a misfiring.

Quote:
Quote:Probably. I suggest you read about evolutionary psychology.

I don't think there's a great deal of work by evolutionary psychologist regarding the development of moral beliefs (rather than behavior),

There has. Google "evolutionary psychology morality".

Quote:that explores the transitions from a religious view of morality, to a secular one. Though there are some works by philosophers such as Alsdair Macintyre who take on such an endeavor.

It certainly depends on what level of morality one is discussing - simple or complex social behavior.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Chas's post
18-01-2015, 10:33 AM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(18-01-2015 08:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-01-2015 08:01 AM)Dom Wrote:  It's an instinct - survival of the species. We are herd animals - we live in groups.

It is not beneficial to harm your group. They do well, you do well.

Individual groups add their own flavor to create sets of morals, and these "flavors" are taught to children and become ingrained.

Like with everything else - some are endowed with more and some with less.

Religion has nothing to do with it, aside of consisting of tons of differing groups.


You're making the same mistake as Chas did earlier. You conflating moral behavior and moral beliefs. My OP was about beliefs about morality, not about actual moral behavior.

This is what makes belief:

"Individual groups add their own flavor to create sets of morals, and these "flavors" are taught to children and become ingrained. "

Beliefs depend on where you are born and who influences you.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-01-2015, 10:35 AM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(18-01-2015 07:08 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The two part Moral Questions.

In a Letter from a Birmingham Jail, Rev. King speaks of the injustice of his people, as a violation of an eternal law.

For those who don’t believe in such a law, where do you think such beliefs came from?

Many people also believe that we have intrinsic moral obligations, and responsibilities. That we are endowed with a moral purpose. That the rightness and wrongness of certain things are violation of something sacred and eternal.

Would you say all these beliefs are merely a product of religious indoctrincations? That without religion we wouldn’t be compelled to believe these things?

The second part of the question is this.

Do you think that most moral statements of communities, of people, both historically and in the present, most statements protesting injustice, and evil, have this sort of understanding in the background, of eternal moral laws, of intrinsic moral obligations, that have been violated? That they tend to presuppose such a reality? Particularly in consideration that most societies and people have historically been religious.

(keep in mind that this is a question of beliefs regarding morality, rather than actual moral behavior)

"Would you say all these beliefs are merely a product of religious indoctrincations(sic)? That without religion we wouldn’t be compelled to believe these things?"

I wouldn't because it is almost always true that oversimplifying something leads to error.

Belief in some sort of "eternal moral laws" is probably more of a product of the infancy of our species and our inability to perceive of a time without humans in it. So, for all intents and purposes to humans in a human-centered universe, having morals is eternal only in the sense that as long as we have been humans we have had innate morals.

But morality is no more eternal than the rocks outside and underneath your domicile. They appear stationary, and old, and as far as you or any other human is aware, they have always been there. But we know that rocks are not static things.

"Do you think that most moral statements of communities, of people, both historically and in the present, most statements protesting injustice, and evil, have this sort of understanding in the background, of eternal moral laws, of intrinsic moral obligations, that have been violated? That they tend to presuppose such a reality? Particularly in consideration that most societies and people have historically been religious."

Most people today probably do believe that morality is objective and eternal, and probably all of the early civilizations of humans who established moral codes did too.

It isn't so much a matter of having to presuppose it, it is a matter of not knowing that there were any other alternatives.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like TheBeardedDude's post
18-01-2015, 10:42 AM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
How beliefs like an "eternal moral code" come about are probably similar to how beliefs in things like a flat Earth and a Geocentric Universe come about. It is through a lack of information and knowledge that leads to incorrect assumptions upon which conclusions are built.

Religion has a lot of incorrect assumptions upon which its entire foundation is built.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like TheBeardedDude's post
18-01-2015, 10:58 AM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
RationalPoet.........Our morals do not come from books, or our labels. Those things do not automatically make us behave. Our morality is in our evolution. Our ability as a species to be cruel or compassionate is in us.

Religious people of all labels love to point out depictions of empathy and compassion in their books, traditions and acts. If liberals and moderates especially, are willing to accept that exists in all religions, then that should tell you it is not the religion doing it, it is you, the individual doing it.

Poetry by Brian37(poems by an atheist) Also on Facebook as BrianJames Rational Poet and Twitter Brianrrs37
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-01-2015, 11:23 AM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(18-01-2015 10:35 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Most people today probably do believe that morality is objective and eternal, and probably all of the early civilizations of humans who established moral codes did too.

It isn't so much a matter of having to presuppose it, it is a matter of not knowing that there were any other alternatives.

Let's assume this is in fact true, that most people today and historically, have believed this about morality, that it is objective and eternal.

Then it would be safe to assume that when these people, have moral disputes amongst each other, whether one is pro-slavery or antislavery, whether one belongs to the party protesting an injustice, or to the party deemed as perpetuator of this injustice, that such beliefs about objective morality, eternal moral laws, continue to exists in the background, as the presupposed beliefs of both parties?

Or in other words, it would be safe to assume that since both parties believe there is an objective moral standard, that there are eternal moral laws, that both parties see themselves as attempting to convey what the eternal law requires of all of them. Would you agree?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: