The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
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15-02-2015, 12:46 PM
The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
Moral relativism and moral subjectivity means that morals aren't static, and you have to think about the situation and its outcomes to make a moral decision. Adhering to a preconceived idea or rule and assuming it's moral, isn't thinking about or making a judgement. It's relying upon someone else's moral compass.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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15-02-2015, 12:54 PM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(15-02-2015 12:28 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Even Girlyman ...

I'm always confused as what to make of this when I see it. I mean even Tomasia ...

(15-02-2015 12:40 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  It's not relevant if girly agrees or not, I disagree with him too if he believes that acting on moral commandments without thinking about them makes one amoral.

Think that's the definition of what it means to be moral.

(15-02-2015 12:40 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Altruism and altruistic behavior. It isn't a moral rule, it's a relativistic behavior shared by many species.

Yes. That has nothing to do with moral codes.

(15-02-2015 12:40 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Good people are corrupted by fundamentalist beliefs, be that religion or whatever. They act out of fear and follow rules and guidelines that they'd otherwise not.

I think that's correct. Islamic fundamentalist and ISIS and the Lord's Resistance Army have highly structured and rigid moral codes. By being among the most moral people on the planet, they provide an indisputable argument against morality.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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15-02-2015, 12:57 PM
The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(15-02-2015 12:54 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(15-02-2015 12:28 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Even Girlyman ...

I'm always confused as what to make of this when I see it. I mean even Tomasia ...

(15-02-2015 12:40 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  It's not relevant if girly agrees or not, I disagree with him too if he believes that acting on moral commandments without thinking about them makes one amoral.

Think that's the definition of what it means to be moral.

(15-02-2015 12:40 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Altruism and altruistic behavior. It isn't a moral rule, it's a relativistic behavior shared by many species.

Yes. That has nothing to do with moral codes.

(15-02-2015 12:40 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Good people are corrupted by fundamentalist beliefs, be that religion or whatever. They act out of fear and follow rules and guidelines that they'd otherwise not.

I think that's correct. Islamic fundamentalist and ISIS and the Lord's Resistance Army have highly structured and rigid moral codes. By being among the most moral people on the planet, they provide an indisputable argument against morality.

They're the most "moral" people on the planet.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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15-02-2015, 01:01 PM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(15-02-2015 12:57 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(15-02-2015 12:54 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I'm always confused as what to make of this when I see it. I mean even Tomasia ...


Think that's the definition of what it means to be moral.


Yes. That has nothing to do with moral codes.


I think that's correct. Islamic fundamentalist and ISIS and the Lord's Resistance Army have highly structured and rigid moral codes. By being among the most moral people on the planet, they provide an indisputable argument against morality.

They're the most "moral" people on the planet.

Yup. That's got the point. Thumbsup

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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15-02-2015, 01:03 PM
The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(15-02-2015 01:01 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(15-02-2015 12:57 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  They're the most "moral" people on the planet.

Yup. That's got the point. Thumbsup

They certainly believe so Thumbsup

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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15-02-2015, 01:26 PM (This post was last modified: 15-02-2015 01:31 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(15-02-2015 12:46 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Moral relativism and moral subjectivity means that morals aren't static, and you have to think about the situation and its outcomes to make a moral decision. Adhering to a preconceived idea or rule and assuming it's moral, isn't thinking about or making a judgement. It's relying upon someone else's moral compass.

Your sort of all over the place, jumping around from one term to the next, moral compass, the golden rule, altruistic, relativist altruism, moral relativism, amorality, that it becomes almost impossible to parse out what it is you are trying to get it.

Moral relativism, moral subjectivity, implies that morality is to each his own. That a claim that an action is amoral is only true in relation to you, but not true for someone else.
So when you say an action based, on an adherence to some law, is amoral, this is not objectively true, in fact it's only true in relationship to you, but not necessarily true in relationship to someone else. You're not expressing a fact, but expressing your own personal opinion.

Claiming an action is amoral because it's an adherence to some belief in some external commandment, to someone who thinks it is moral, is sort of like telling me you don't like my man-bun, and that I ought to prove you wrong.
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15-02-2015, 01:29 PM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(15-02-2015 12:40 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Acting by following the rules under the assumption they are moral, is amoral. You're not using any sort of moral judgment if you use someone else's moral judgement.

"Either way, so you think there’s this underlying moral direction, summed up as the golden rule, that operates on us, perhaps at some inner level, that gets clouded, or even denied by religious beliefs? This is kind of what you were trying to imply in how good people get corrupted by religion to do bad things? Because good people know to act in ways according to the golden rule, and it’s only when they’re led to believe in actions that are counter to this, on the basis of divine authority, that they are able to do bad things? "

Altruism and altruistic behavior. It isn't a moral rule, it's a relativistic behavior shared by many species.

You're the one that mentioned the golden rule , but either way I can't tell if you're disagreeing with my summary of your views or not.
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15-02-2015, 02:31 PM (This post was last modified: 15-02-2015 02:39 PM by TheBeardedDude.)
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(15-02-2015 01:26 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-02-2015 12:46 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Moral relativism and moral subjectivity means that morals aren't static, and you have to think about the situation and its outcomes to make a moral decision. Adhering to a preconceived idea or rule and assuming it's moral, isn't thinking about or making a judgement. It's relying upon someone else's moral compass.

Your sort of all over the place, jumping around from one term to the next, moral compass, the golden rule, altruistic, relativist altruism, moral relativism, amorality, that it becomes almost impossible to parse out what it is you are trying to get it.

Moral relativism, moral subjectivity, implies that morality is to each his own. That a claim that an action is amoral is only true in relation to you, but not true for someone else.
So when you say an action based, on an adherence to some law, is amoral, this is not objectively true, in fact it's only true in relationship to you, but not necessarily true in relationship to someone else. You're not expressing a fact, but expressing your own personal opinion.

Claiming an action is amoral because it's an adherence to some belief in some external commandment, to someone who thinks it is moral, is sort of like telling me you don't like my man-bun, and that I ought to prove you wrong.

"Your sort of all over the place, jumping around from one term to the next, moral compass, the golden rule, altruistic, relativist altruism, moral relativism, amorality, that it becomes almost impossible to parse out what it is you are trying to get it."

These terms are not mutually exclusive. I use them to get my point across in a more concise way.

"Moral relativism, moral subjectivity, implies that morality is to each his own. That a claim that an action is amoral is only true in relation to you, but not true for someone else."

Morality is a "to each his own" as that is what it means to be moral, to think about one's actions and consequences.

As for the amoral bit though, you've still completely missed the point. The only way to ensure that I am not a moral actor, is to use someone else's ideas and definitions of moral. So, if I am an adherent to a religion and I follow its moral codes, I am neither moral or immoral by simply adhering to them, I am amoral.

This is not a difficult concept. The basic of it are that you can't be moral by doing something under the assumption that someone else has worked out the moral quandary for you.

"So when you say an action based, on an adherence to some law, is amoral, this is not objectively true, in fact it's only true in relationship to you, but not necessarily true in relationship to someone else. You're not expressing a fact, but expressing your own personal opinion."

You have no devolved into some other blind tangent. Of course everything is relative to the observer, but adherence to a law under the assumption it is just or moral, is not a moral action and does not make one moral. It makes one complacent and a good mind-slave to the state or religion.

"Claiming an action is amoral because it's an adherence to some belief in some external commandment, to *someone who thinks it is moral*, is sort of like telling me you don't like my man-bun, and that I ought to prove you wrong."

*Someone who assumes it is moral because they believe it comes from a divine moral arbiter*

And you're still missing something else, I am saying the ACTOR is amoral. The action's moral nature is unknown to the actor because it is following someone or something's definition of morality under the assumption it is moral.

Someone who follows religious morals because they think their god is a moral beacon, not only makes them amoral, it makes them rather gullible and naive.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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15-02-2015, 02:36 PM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(15-02-2015 01:29 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-02-2015 12:40 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Acting by following the rules under the assumption they are moral, is amoral. You're not using any sort of moral judgment if you use someone else's moral judgement.

"Either way, so you think there’s this underlying moral direction, summed up as the golden rule, that operates on us, perhaps at some inner level, that gets clouded, or even denied by religious beliefs? This is kind of what you were trying to imply in how good people get corrupted by religion to do bad things? Because good people know to act in ways according to the golden rule, and it’s only when they’re led to believe in actions that are counter to this, on the basis of divine authority, that they are able to do bad things? "

Altruism and altruistic behavior. It isn't a moral rule, it's a relativistic behavior shared by many species.

You're the one that mentioned the golden rule , but either way I can't tell if you're disagreeing with my summary of your views or not.

I disagree, this should be very explicit if you understand what I am typing.

The Golden Rule is an attempt by man to define altruistic behaviors. These are probably the best biological explanation we have for the underpinnings to our morality.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I think of vampire bats when I hear this. They are known to live in broods that are often closely related. On nights where one is unsuccessful in attaining an adequate meal, another bat will share its take that night by transferring blood orally to the unsuccessful bat. If the next night bat 2 (the giver on night 1) is unsuccessful but bat 1 (unlucky on night 1) is, bat 2 will tend to be helped by bat 1.

It is altruistic reciprocation. It is a behavior that has evolved in animals. We are animals.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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15-02-2015, 04:15 PM
The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
Some light reading for you Tomasia.

http://www.bustle.com/articles/62411-rai...k&ts_pid=2

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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