The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
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15-02-2015, 07:40 PM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(15-02-2015 07:33 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(15-02-2015 06:56 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  The actor might make a moral choice as to whether or not to choose to adhere to the moral system of a particular belief system, but the moral nature of that system is fixed by someone other than them.

So they accept opinion of someone else's morality in order to make a choice.
Yes but in their heads it is either "the opinion of someone else's morality" or a belief that the other party is presenting a group of "moral facts".
You and me would consider the Pope's moral claims to be his opinion, some of his followers would consider it to be infallible fact.

(15-02-2015 06:56 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Making them an amoral actor.
But they still have a "free" choice. Most, if not all believers "sin" (do immoral things according to their own beliefs). They have a belief system of right and wrong and they have the ability to make wrong choices. In my opinion they can be classified as moral actors.
(15-02-2015 06:56 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  They assume that they've made a choice based on a correct moral arbiter, but they've not actually made a moral choice when it comes to the decision (the decision to or not to use IVF in your example).
How is it not a moral choice? They have believed IVF to be wrong, and they have made a choice between not having IVF (moral) and having IVF (immoral) as per their own beliefs.

(15-02-2015 07:02 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  In religious codes for morality, the choice is an illusion. It's like a Christian saying people choose to go to hell. That is complete rubbish. It's a false choice.
Yeah, I think the religious people often choose to do "immoral" acts, probably because the religious organisations set them up to fail. I mean they make it so that they are sinners just from being born, sinners for having sexual desires, sinners for wanting a better life for themselves, sinners for doubting god's existence...
Although, granted being born isn't a choice, sexual desire isn't a choice...

"Yes but in their heads it is either "the opinion of someone else's morality" or a belief that the other party is presenting a group of "moral facts".
You and me would consider the Pope's moral claims to be his opinion, some of his followers would consider it to be infallible fact."


And it is an illusion that it is moral. They are not making a moral choice even though they think they are. Intent doesn't matter.

"But they still have a "free" choice. Most, if not all believers "sin" (do immoral things according to their own beliefs). They have a belief system of right and wrong and they have the ability to make wrong choices. In my opinion they can be classified as moral actors."

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that they don't have morals. I am saying that they can't call following the tenants of a religious doctrine moral. Ultimately, they are parsing the morals of their religion through their own moral filter, and are either deciding to ignore their innate moral standards, or it is in-line with their moral standards, or they have become accustomed to blindly following these rules and have somehow managed to shut off their moral compass.

This is why I point out that it is curious that people always find the scripture they want to back them up and special plead away any that contradicts it.

"How is it not a moral choice? They have believed IVF to be wrong, and they have made a choice between not having IVF (moral) and having IVF (immoral) as per their own beliefs."

It is not their moral choice, it is someone else's. When they allow someone else's moral compass dictate their actions, they have defaulted to someone else's morality. They have not actually considered the quandary.

"Yeah, I think the religious people often choose to do "immoral" acts, probably because the religious organisations set them up to fail. I mean they make it so that they are sinners just from being born, sinners for having sexual desires, sinners for wanting a better life for themselves, sinners for doubting god's existence...
Although, granted being born isn't a choice, sexual desire isn't a choice..."


Religion sells them on being sick, then tells them that religion has the cure.

It prays on the weak and manipulates through fear. It is an immoral institution of manipulation.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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15-02-2015, 08:15 PM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(15-02-2015 07:08 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Objective morality isn't necessary in order to call an action or actor moral or immoral.

It has to be presupposed if you want me to believe that any statement you have in regards to what is moral or not, amounts to anything more than you just telling me your likes and dislikes.

Quote:If you assume it is moral because of its source, you forfeit the ability to evaluate it as moral or immoral. Because you are assuming it is moral from the beginning

No, I can evaluate what's moral or not, based on whether they adhere to those moral precepts or not, and if others see themselves obligated to the same precepts, I can pass judgement on them, or call them into account when they break these very precepts.
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15-02-2015, 08:34 PM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(15-02-2015 07:40 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  "Yes but in their heads it is either "the opinion of someone else's morality" or a belief that the other party is presenting a group of "moral facts".
You and me would consider the Pope's moral claims to be his opinion, some of his followers would consider it to be infallible fact."


And it is an illusion that it is moral. They are not making a moral choice even though they think they are. Intent doesn't matter.
I'm not quite following you here. I know it seems perfectly clear to you so you might feel I am being obtuse but there is some underlying thing that we are misalligned on. So I will need you to spell it out a bit better for me.
Aren't all moral beliefs merely an illusion? We certainly have no way of objectively verifying whose beleifs are correct. The Pope might say that IVF is immoral, you might say that IVF is morally neutral but how can we obtain the truth? How can we determine whose position is an illusion and whose position is correct?
(15-02-2015 07:40 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that they don't have morals. I am saying that they can't call following the tenants of a religious doctrine moral. Ultimately, they are parsing the morals of their religion through their own moral filter, and are either deciding to ignore their innate moral standards, or it is in-line with their moral standards, or they have become accustomed to blindly following these rules and have somehow managed to shut off their moral compass.
OK, perhaps I am starting to understand your viewpoint.
As I understand it,
- you think everyone has an innate moral standard that is personal to them.
- you think a person accepting someone else's moral standard when in conflict with their own equates to "illusionary" because it hides the real moral standard (that being the innate moral standard unique to that person)

Am I understanding your position on this correctly?
(15-02-2015 07:40 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Religion sells them on being sick, then tells them that religion has the cure.

It prays on the weak and manipulates through fear.
I agree, they have a well defined strategy to develop a dependent, controlling and long term relationship with their followers.
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15-02-2015, 08:35 PM (This post was last modified: 15-02-2015 09:07 PM by TheBeardedDude.)
The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
You're back to responding but not saying anything.

This was to Tomasia

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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16-02-2015, 06:37 AM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(15-02-2015 08:35 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You're back to responding but not saying anything.

This was to Tomasia

I don't think this amounts to a response.
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16-02-2015, 07:28 AM
The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(16-02-2015 06:37 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-02-2015 08:35 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  You're back to responding but not saying anything.

This was to Tomasia

I don't think this amounts to a response.

It is a response, but it doesn't address your non-answer post.

When you actually address points raised to you instead of trying to divert the conversation, I'll invest more time in my replies.

Thus far, you've dodged as much as you can and avoided anything else. For instance, either you don't understand my example using math, or you don't want to.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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16-02-2015, 07:32 AM
The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(15-02-2015 08:34 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(15-02-2015 07:40 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  "Yes but in their heads it is either "the opinion of someone else's morality" or a belief that the other party is presenting a group of "moral facts".
You and me would consider the Pope's moral claims to be his opinion, some of his followers would consider it to be infallible fact."


And it is an illusion that it is moral. They are not making a moral choice even though they think they are. Intent doesn't matter.
I'm not quite following you here. I know it seems perfectly clear to you so you might feel I am being obtuse but there is some underlying thing that we are misalligned on. So I will need you to spell it out a bit better for me.
Aren't all moral beliefs merely an illusion? We certainly have no way of objectively verifying whose beleifs are correct. The Pope might say that IVF is immoral, you might say that IVF is morally neutral but how can we obtain the truth? How can we determine whose position is an illusion and whose position is correct?
(15-02-2015 07:40 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that they don't have morals. I am saying that they can't call following the tenants of a religious doctrine moral. Ultimately, they are parsing the morals of their religion through their own moral filter, and are either deciding to ignore their innate moral standards, or it is in-line with their moral standards, or they have become accustomed to blindly following these rules and have somehow managed to shut off their moral compass.
OK, perhaps I am starting to understand your viewpoint.
As I understand it,
- you think everyone has an innate moral standard that is personal to them.
- you think a person accepting someone else's moral standard when in conflict with their own equates to "illusionary" because it hides the real moral standard (that being the innate moral standard unique to that person)

Am I understanding your position on this correctly?
(15-02-2015 07:40 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Religion sells them on being sick, then tells them that religion has the cure.

It prays on the weak and manipulates through fear.
I agree, they have a well defined strategy to develop a dependent, controlling and long term relationship with their followers.

You're getting close to what I'm saying.

People have their own subjective morality. This is demonstrable given that someone's views and opinions on moral issues aren't static.

But when you use rules/guides/laws from someone else or from an organization or book, you're not using your moral sense, you're using theirs. Blind adherence to something you presuppose is moral, is amoral. It absolved the actor from having to actually use their morality. It gives them an "out" for saying things like "I don't hate gay people but God says it's wrong" or "hate the sin not the sinner".

It is a cheap and easy way to pretend to make moral choices.

You can either agree with everything someone says or disagree with everything someone says. Either way, you never have to think again.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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16-02-2015, 07:33 AM
The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
You read that article I posted Tomasia?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
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16-02-2015, 07:35 AM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(16-02-2015 07:28 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  It is a response, but it doesn't address your non-answer post.

When you actually address points raised to you instead of trying to divert the conversation, I'll invest more time in my replies.

Thus far, you've dodged as much as you can and avoided anything else. For instance, either you don't understand my example using math, or you don't want to.

That's because you proceeded in your responses, with a very odd understanding of relativistic morality. And in my view that would have to be dealt with, before responding to any of your other post. This misunderstanding of yours, overshadows the near entirety of your responses.

You don't want to concede that your claim that amorality is a relativistic statement, that only applies to you, and not anyone else. You also don't seem willing to concede that relativistic moral statements amount to no more than you expressing your likes and dislikes. And this is a hurdle we'd have to cross, if I am to continue discussing this with you, without a continual series of misunderstandings, that weren't dealt with from the beginning.

Notice in this regards it's not just me pointing this out to you, but others here have as well.
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16-02-2015, 07:39 AM
The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
Posts 307, 316, and 317 must have simply eluded you then?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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