The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
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18-01-2015, 02:01 PM (This post was last modified: 18-01-2015 02:14 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(18-01-2015 01:56 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Even if all believers don't agree on everything regarding what is moral, Nearly all believers believe they are obligated to do what is moral. That there in fact is an eternal moral order, that their lives are obligated to, are to be committed to pursuing. So even if over time their perception of what is moral changes, perhaps aligning itself to the sort of goodness you believe in, that sense of obligation still persists, as an eternal calling.

If there is no moral law, or if we all recognized that such a thing does not exist. We can see how we can get out of this binding conundrum, by declaring something that religious people have not been able to declare before, that we have no moral obligations, that it's all just fictions, a series of beliefs brought along by misfirings of the brain.

The dimension of this religious perception, is that we are always try to perceive and decide what is moral. Outside of this, the question is able to offer something different, why be moral at all?

And THAT ladies and gentlemen is what's known as moving the goal posts.

You've single-highhandedly now refuted yourself, and blown up your own thread. If the moral law changes, then it's not "eternal" now is it ?

Congratulations. Laughat

And BTW, you have a very childish, infantile and uneducated set of ideas about what morality is, and where it comes from. Not surprising, but nonetheless quite amazingly presuppositionally ignorant.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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18-01-2015, 02:24 PM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(18-01-2015 02:01 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  ...
If the moral law changes, then it's not "eternal" now is it ?
...

Bucky, it's like you and I are reading Tommy's responses in completely different ways.

I thought that (the non-eternalism of it) was kinda what he was leading to in the first place.

Consider

@Tommy,
As to "why be moral at all?" Ace answered that with post #4.

Wink

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18-01-2015, 02:27 PM
The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(18-01-2015 01:44 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-01-2015 11:43 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  As they say, "The road to hell is paved by people with good intentions." So yes, it is probably fair to say that when 2 moral absolutists face one another where both believe morals are objective and theirs is the good and just one, do indeed fully believe that they are acting as moral agents in accordance with their beliefs.

I think it's is important, that the perception in question here, is not one particular to a handful of believers, but the perception of most people, since most people are believers of some sort. Only a few people, believe morality is subjective, relative. The rest of humanity, past and present perceives morality as objective, as part of some eternal law. This perception is important thing to consider here.

When most people hear about the New Delhi rape incident, their perception of the wrongness of it, is not seen as subjective, but as objective, as a violation of some eternal law, like Rev. King saw the injustice of his people. This aspect is present in most people's moral perceptions, always in the background.

When countless individuals of various religious stripes, muslims, christians, declare the actions of the Charlie Hebdo as immoral, as wrong, it's important to remember that they don't perceive this wrongness as subjective. In fact even when those who believe morality is subjective enter a side, it’s a side that presupposes a violation of something eternal.

Quote: Even so, blind adherence to something commanded of you, doesn't make you moral, it makes you amoral. And if the commandments are immoral, then that makes you an amoral person acting immorally.

It doesn’t necessarily have to be blind adherence. MLK perception of injustice doesn’t seem to a product of blind adherence, but he anchors and perceives his sense of wrongness, as not merely a strong feeling, but rooted in something higher than him, perceived as a violation of something sacred and eternal.

Quote:But it isn't only religious and moral absolutists who oppose moral injustices. Indeed, one can oppose the immorality of things such as slavery while recognizing the subjective nature of morality.

Of course you can. But I highly doubt that when you declare the wrongness of something you perceive as heinous, you qualify it by indicating that it is only subjectively so. While you may personally believe it is, that aspect is usually left undisclosed, and as a result your moral outrage and protests goes along the tide of everyone else, who believes this wrongness is not subjective. While you might not be religious, you have the benefit of partaking in the religious imaginations of everyone else, who perceives the rightness and wrongness of this, as objectively right and wrong, and not subjectively so.

Why I think this seemingly religious perception is important even if false, is that it creates an illusion, of binding principles, rather than to each his own, gives a sense that we are obligated to something higher than ourselves, to things such as justice, goodness. It’s better to be parties arguing about the moral law, what is the just, and good course of action, than to be a part of parties that believe in lawlessness, and deny such a law all together. It’s the difference between having something to argue about, to challenge a series of actions, than to lack a foundation to do so.

An appeal to consensus or majority doesn't qualify it as true or even likely to be true.

As for things like rape, we can see instances of rape in the animal kingdom and look at it from 2 perspectives. The individual and the population as a whole. In instances of rape, the good of the individual is harmed (the victim) to the point of being potentially fatal or compromising future reproductive success. And for the population, there is no benefit in rape as it results in a potential harm to one of its members.

But this is still subjective. Because to the rocks, the mountains, the streams, and the planet itself, the actions of bags of sentient chemicals upon its surface is irrelevant.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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18-01-2015, 02:27 PM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(18-01-2015 02:01 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You've single-highhandedly now refuted yourself, and blown up your own thread. If the moral law changes, then it's not "eternal" now is it ?

Congratulations. Laughat

And once again, you ignored my previous post. But to repeat myself. I have no interest in arguing for the validity or the existence of an eternal moral law. The only thing I'm interested in discussing is what roles such beliefs (even if they are false), have in shaping our moral perceptions.
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18-01-2015, 02:34 PM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(18-01-2015 02:27 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  ...
discussing is what roles such beliefs (even if they are false), have in shaping our moral perceptions.

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that our moral perceptions shape our beliefs?

Data --> Information --> Knowledge... not the other way around. Perceptions would be data, would they not?

Consider

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18-01-2015, 02:42 PM
The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(18-01-2015 02:34 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(18-01-2015 02:27 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  ...
discussing is what roles such beliefs (even if they are false), have in shaping our moral perceptions.

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that our moral perceptions shape our beliefs?

Data --> Information --> Knowledge... not the other way around. Perceptions would be data, would they not?

Consider

Except in the case of religious morals where the beliefs precede the adoption of the religious morals. And the religious morals are assumed mora because of the religious beliefs.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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18-01-2015, 02:45 PM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(18-01-2015 02:34 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that our moral perceptions shape our beliefs?

Yea, I think so.
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18-01-2015, 02:46 PM
The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
And we recognize that morality is subjective even at the individual level. We have a lot of people in our midsts who lack empathy, some of who lack some of the more basic morals we sometimes consider internal. These individuals tend to do something that gives us reason to remove them from society.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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18-01-2015, 02:50 PM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(18-01-2015 02:42 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(18-01-2015 02:34 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that our moral perceptions shape our beliefs?

Data --> Information --> Knowledge... not the other way around. Perceptions would be data, would they not?

Consider

Except in the case of religious morals where the beliefs precede the adoption of the religious morals. And the religious morals are assumed mora because of the religious beliefs.


Good point, well made.

Yes

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18-01-2015, 03:02 PM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
Wow, reading through this, sorry I missed this. All the best points seem to have been taken.... Sad

"I don't mind being wrong...it's a time I get to learn something new..."
Me.
N.B: I routinely make edits to posts to correct grammar or spelling, or to restate a point more clearly. I only notify edits if they materially change meaning.
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