The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
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19-01-2015, 07:53 AM (This post was last modified: 19-01-2015 07:58 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(18-01-2015 08:27 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  All men should be treated equally with equal rights gets changed into all men are created equally with the same intrinsic rights.

Dr King appeals to the imaginary authority in their heads instead of saying, "We should treat all people fairly because we are all humans, born in the same way, on the same planet, all part of the same species. There is no reason why anyone should be treated unfairly, simply because he or she appears to be different.

Well, the very idea of equality is founded on a principle that all men are created equal.

"As a lawyer, future Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase argued before the Supreme Court in the case of John Van Zandt, who had been charged with violating the Fugitive Slave Act, that:

The law of the Creator, which invests every human being with an inalienable title to freedom, cannot be repealed by any interior law which asserts that man is property."

Or in the words written on the declaration of independence: "“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights"

The idea of equality, while it may not belong to any particular religion, is based on a belief in inalienable rights, endowed by our Creator, they in essence are based on some supposed eternal foundation.

It's never been we should treat people equally, it's always been that all men are obligated to treat people equally. It's always been a perspective that presupposes an eternal law, intrinsic obligation and values, endowed upon us.

The only person changing this is you. It's never been the other way around, or reimagined as intrinsic values. The only one attempting to reimagine this entire edifice is you, and folks who don't believe such thing as intrinsic values, that endowed rights and obligations exist.
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19-01-2015, 08:18 AM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(18-01-2015 04:03 PM)DLJ Wrote:  It's not about persuading them (theists) that they (moral laws etc.) do not exist; it's about persuading them that there are better ways to seek and find them than through Faith.

Such a statement leads me to believe that you and I are not on entirely different sides of the fence here.

Even the apostle Paul didn't believe that one discovers what is right or wrong, by being a participant of a particular religion, or having some form of scripture that dictates these things. Or even that faith itself was a requirement. He says this much, in his observation of the Gentiles:

"For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts,* while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them" (Romans 2).
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19-01-2015, 08:59 AM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(19-01-2015 07:53 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The only person changing this is you. It's never been the other way around, or reimagined as intrinsic values. The only one attempting to reimagine this entire edifice is you, and folks who don't believe such thing as intrinsic values, that endowed rights and obligations exist.

Fuck you. Drinking Beverage

'Rights' are a human construct, and are only as important as other humans make them. Your 'rights' mean fuck all unless other people in a society grant them to you. Rights are always contingent up society.

See how well a tsunami respects your right to life or property.

See how well it works out when a slave demands equality and his right to freedom.

None of your supposed rights are intrinsic, foundational, or granted from on high. If you try to assert rights that you think you have, but that others disagree with, it will not end well for you. Your rights cease to exists when others simply cease to grant them. They are merely a label that we give to a series of societal obligations and privileges, which aren't even required to be equitable (Kings and nobles had more rights under feudalism); and case in point, all of a King's 'god granted' or 'intrinsic' rights didn't save Louis XVI from the guillotines of the French Revolution. The rights of the King ceased to matter when the population at large turned on him and ceased to grant him his imagined rights.

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19-01-2015, 09:31 AM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(19-01-2015 08:18 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-01-2015 04:03 PM)DLJ Wrote:  It's not about persuading them (theists) that they (moral laws etc.) do not exist; it's about persuading them that there are better ways to seek and find them than through Faith.

Such a statement leads me to believe that you and I are not on entirely different sides of the fence here.

Even the apostle Paul didn't believe that one discovers what is right or wrong, by being a participant of a particular religion, or having some form of scripture that dictates these things. Or even that faith itself was a requirement. He says this much, in his observation of the Gentiles:

"For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts,* while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them" (Romans 2).

Honestly, I have no idea on which side of the (or any) fence you are. If you stated it, I missed it.

But to clarify my fence-side... I have never heard of a good example of an intrinsic moral law or goal. I'm not ruling out that one or many may exist but all I see are contextual and security/accessibility related goals.

As for 'eternal' ones, see my earlier comment about the inherent problem with consequentialism / utilitarianism.

My point is that it's probably not a good idea to persuade people with a faulty (divine command) epistemology that there are no moral laws before making the case that moral laws / goals / decisions should be based on process and facts rather than hearsay and rumour (e.g. revelation).

Regarding Paul, wasn't that bit about the argument over whether to allow non-Jews into the cult?

Gotta hand it to the dude, he knew a thing or two about marketing. Big Grin

OK, so if Paul didn't think belief in or understanding of scripture was necessary to be moral.... what was your point again?

Huh

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19-01-2015, 10:29 AM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(18-01-2015 07:37 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(18-01-2015 07:14 AM)Chas Wrote:  Humans have a common sense of empathy and fairness that is a product of evolution. These aspects are also seen in other species.

That sense coupled with reason obviates any need for morality to have come from anywhere but from within by natural causes.

You're speaking more about behavior, I'm asking about beliefs in particular, such as MLK's beliefs, that the injustice of his people, was a violation of an eternal law.

Where do you think such a belief in an eternal moral law came from?

Or to repeat the rest of the OP:

Many people also believe that we have intrinsic moral obligations, and responsibilities. That we are endowed with a moral purpose. That the rightness and wrongness of certain things are violation of something sacred and eternal.

Would you say all these beliefs are merely a product of religious indoctrincations? That without religion we wouldn’t be compelled to believe these things?

The second part of the question is this.

Do you think that most moral statements of communities, of people, both historically and in the present, most statements protesting injustice, and evil, have this sort of understanding in the background, of eternal moral laws, of intrinsic moral obligations, that have been violated? That they tend to presuppose such a reality? Particularly in consideration that most societies and people have historically been religious.

Beliefs and behavior are intrinsically tied together. If evolution compels me to do something, but I am ignorant of the process, I might fashion an explanation that would suit me (a belief).

Beliefs change behavior. Behavior creates beliefs.

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19-01-2015, 10:39 AM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(19-01-2015 08:59 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  'Rights' are a human construct, and are only as important as other humans make them. Your 'rights' mean fuck all unless other people in a society grant them to you. Rights are always contingent up society.

None of your supposed rights are intrinsic, foundational, or granted from on high.

While it may be true that there are no intrinsic rights, you miss the point.

Those who conceived of human rights, laid out in the constitution, who protested the violation of such rights when it came to slavery, didn't perceive these things as extrinsic, but intrinsic rights.

Religions have never taken previously perceived extrinsic rights and reimagined them as intrinsic. Societies and cultures historically built on religious perceptions, have from the beginning perceived these rights as intrinsic, and often explicitly stated as such, as in the Declaration of Independence.

If you want to take these commonly and deeply held rights, and deny them as intrinsic, and claim them as extrinsic, it's important that you recognize you are doing something all together new here. You're reinterpreting these concepts in ways they were never interpreted before. It's not religious people adopting secular moral beliefs and claiming them as religious ones, but rather folks such as yourself adopting religious beliefs about intrinsic values, and rights, and adopting them as non-intrinsic ones.
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19-01-2015, 11:01 AM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(19-01-2015 10:29 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Beliefs change behavior. Behavior creates beliefs.

I tend to agree here.

Do you think if someone who once believed he had moral obligations and responsibilities, comes to later believe that he has no such obligations, that this could likely result in a behavior change as well?

Do you think if someone who once believed there is such a thing as moral rights and wrongs, comes to later believe that there is no such thing, that this could likely result in a behavior change as well?
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19-01-2015, 11:02 AM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(19-01-2015 10:29 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  If evolution compels me to do something...

You don't understand evolution, do you...

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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19-01-2015, 11:11 AM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
(19-01-2015 09:31 AM)DLJ Wrote:  My point is that it's probably not a good idea to persuade people with a faulty (divine command) epistemology that there are no moral laws before making the case that moral laws / goals / decisions should be based on process and facts rather than hearsay and rumour (e.g. revelation).

Why do you think it's not a good idea to persuade these sorts of people there is no moral laws, at least not initially?
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19-01-2015, 11:12 AM
RE: The Religious Components of Moral Beliefs
does Tom even try to understand his own words or does he just parrot them out to the rest of the world without a second thought ?

the video I posted already rebutted everything he's said so far

do I have to post every AntiCitizenX video here ?
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