The Resurrection
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12-01-2012, 01:33 AM
The Resurrection
Ok, one thing that I've been wondering about that somehow made sense to me as a Christian, but now... not so much. I guess this is really a question for KC or anyone else that cares to chime in.

Why did God need to sacrifice himself to himself in order to save humanity from himself?

Better without God, and happier too.
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12-01-2012, 02:27 AM
RE: The Resurrection
It seems that god cannot forgive without a lot of bloodshed. Look at the devastation he caused in the Noah's ark story.

When I find myself in times of trouble, Richard Dawkins comes to me, speaking words of reason, now I see, now I see.
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12-01-2012, 04:03 AM
RE: The Resurrection
Basically it comes down to that God is just playing with his toys. He gives these half baked reasons (assuming for argument's sake that he wrote the Bible), but the *most* convincing answer that I've heard is that tired old line "my ways are higher than your ways saith the Lord", which is basically "you're all toys and I'll fuck with you as much as I like. Stop asking questions, bloody peasant."

Another fun answer is "I don't know, ask Him into your life and maybe you'll find out".
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12-01-2012, 04:40 AM
RE: The Resurrection
I have a question, if tomorrow somehow the god of the bible is proven 100% beyond doubt
Would you believe? <stupid question ofcourse if theres proof
But would you worship/follow that immoral god?

"Yeah, good idea. Make them buy your invisible apple. Insist that they do. Market it properly and don't stop until they pay for it." -Malleus
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12-01-2012, 04:47 AM
RE: The Resurrection
(12-01-2012 04:40 AM)Jackrabbit Wrote:  I have a question, if tomorrow somehow the god of the bible is proven 100% beyond doubt
Would you believe? <stupid question ofcourse if theres proof
But would you worship/follow that immoral god?

No fecking way. Respect is earned. I don't give him my allegiance just because he can kill me. Maybe if he tortures me enough my mind will break and then he can do what he likes, but if he's looking for a freewill decision he can go talk to someone else.
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12-01-2012, 06:06 AM
RE: The Resurrection
At one time or another the guys writing this shit must have said to themselves, "Wait a minute, this doesn't make any sense? I think our story is getting a little confusing. Oh, what the hell write it down and we can change it later. Lets just focus on the Jesus character for now"

.
I wasn't . . . until I was
I am . . . until I'm not
.
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12-01-2012, 07:11 AM
RE: The Resurrection
Jesus coming, look busy

"Yeah, good idea. Make them buy your invisible apple. Insist that they do. Market it properly and don't stop until they pay for it." -Malleus
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12-01-2012, 09:32 AM
RE: The Resurrection
(12-01-2012 01:33 AM)Azaraith Wrote:  Ok, one thing that I've been wondering about that somehow made sense to me as a Christian, but now... not so much. I guess this is really a question for KC or anyone else that cares to chime in.

Why did God need to sacrifice himself to himself in order to save humanity from himself?

This is opening up a whole new can or worms... and my fortitude is already starting to wear thin (with a few members), but I'll attempt to explain this:

1) We have to try and understand the concept of infinite and eternity. Never ending. Like, at all. So, before God set the events in motion that started humanity, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were in existence. God is also infinite, and functions as 3 separate beings but act as one.

2) From infinity (time-wise), God had a plan that was going to be enacted. In this plan, the Son was given a purpose. His purpose was to be a sacrifice for the humanity that God created. God love His creations; however, the Son also needed a purpose*.

*God just didn't created more perfect gods because of the paradox of omnipotence I explained it in the Ask a Theist thread*
1) Ok, I really want to go into some detail on this. Just to let you know (you might not care), but Christians roll their eyes at these particular questions. Atheists and non-believers like to ask this and it's akin to a Creationists telling an Evolutionist that if we came from monkeys then how come we still have monkeys. You think it's your ace-in-the-hole, but theologically speaking it's more of a facepalm. If you really, really want to annoy Christians when you're debating them, keep asking this question in some form and make them extensively and exhaustively explain it. Oh and use semantics on them too. They'll start to rage pretty quickly (need to stop giving y'all tactics <_<).

Anyhoo, the explanation: the question is a contradiction. God cannot contradict himself. Also, the question is a fallacy of semantics (as aforementioned). God is all powerful, therefore He cannot be something that He isn't. If He creates something that defies His power then we've created a circular paradox. And while, it's lulzy for you, it isn't a fair question to the theist. If you REALLY want to annoy an Arminian Christian, use this same tactic when addressing free will and omniscience... if they counter with, "well God is all powerful, so He gave us the power to be able to choose", then ask them how an all powerful God can relinquish His power to a human? Doesn't that take away from His omnipotence.

You see, God is either all power or He isn't. Since God is all powerful He cannot create a paradox about His power. But, as I've stated, if you want to get lulzy with Christians, keep hammering this.


3) In order for the Son to have a purpose, there needed to be imperfect beings with the His image implanted upon them. So, sin had to be placed upon humanity. However, sin creates death and can only be reconciled with another death.

4) Christ was perfect; thus, the ultimate death and sacrifice for humanity's sins.

5) Now, that the Son's purpose was served, the Holy Spirit's purpose could be unveiled - to be a mediator to God for us.

[Image: dog-shaking.gif]
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12-01-2012, 09:56 AM
RE: The Resurrection
I shake my head every time I hear/read that 'the son needed a purpose' bit. God shouldn't 'need' anything. And there would be absolutly no purpose for him to have a son anyway. I'm pretty sure you are just making this stuff up KC.



Stop that.Big Grin

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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12-01-2012, 09:59 AM
RE: The Resurrection
(12-01-2012 09:56 AM)germanyt Wrote:  I shake my head every time I hear/read that 'the son needed a purpose' bit. God shouldn't 'need' anything. And there would be absolutly no purpose for him to have a son anyway. I'm pretty sure you are just making this stuff up KC.



Stop that.Big Grin

I stole your line. You can't steal it back.

Stop that.

But, no, not making stuff up. He didn't "need" (poor choice of words on my part) a purpose - that WAS His purpose; set up from infinity.

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