The Resurrection Means Nothing
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06-09-2011, 09:43 AM
RE: The Resurrection Means Nothing
(06-09-2011 09:34 AM)advancedatheist Wrote:  
(05-09-2011 05:26 PM)mysticjbyrd Wrote:  If heaven is such a utopia, what would be the point of resurrecting someone?

Why would anyone want to go to "heaven," sight unseen? According to the christian myth, satan saw it first hand, then led a rebellion against god - which sounds like a prison riot or something. Christian apologists attribute the uprising to satan's "pride," but that doesn't mean people in heaven couldn't rebel for other reasons. I ask christians how they know they won't rebel; perhaps their god has destined one of them to become another satan-like figure in the next stage of his Plan, and this poor believer drew the short straw.

"this poor believer drew the short straw" or they are the lucky one?

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
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06-09-2011, 12:38 PM (This post was last modified: 06-09-2011 12:45 PM by nontheocrat.)
RE: The Resurrection Means Nothing
The Christian heaven is even worse than that! If no one can sin any longer then the supposed "free will" that is so necessary in this life is revoked. This makes all the Christians who go there are nothing more than automatons with no freedom.

So we are left with an eternity of pain and suffering in a lake of fire, or an eternity of slavery with no free will.

Which one is the real hell?

This thread also brings up a question no Christian I've ever talked to can answer.

If Jesus can absolve all the sins of humanity by being dead 3 days, then how could any sin I commit merit eternal punishment? Based on the scale of Jesus debt for everyone I should get a pin-prick and be in the grave a few seconds to pay for just mine. I could do that!

“There is no sin except stupidity.” Oscar Wilde
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06-09-2011, 02:20 PM
RE: The Resurrection Means Nothing
(06-09-2011 12:38 PM)nontheocrat Wrote:  If Jesus can absolve all the sins of humanity by being dead 3 days, then how could any sin I commit merit eternal punishment? Based on the scale of Jesus debt for everyone I should get a pin-prick and be in the grave a few seconds to pay for just mine. I could do that!

The "plan of salvation" apparently failed. Jesus should have gone to hell in our place, and stayed there forever.
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06-09-2011, 08:54 PM
RE: The Resurrection Means Nothing
(06-09-2011 12:38 PM)nontheocrat Wrote:  If Jesus can absolve all the sins of humanity by being dead 3 days, then how could any sin I commit merit eternal punishment? Based on the scale of Jesus debt for everyone I should get a pin-prick and be in the grave a few seconds to pay for just mine. I could do that!

I think I know what a believer might say - something like, 'You can't absolve your own self of your sins! You don't have that power since you're not God. Only God can take away sins. If you were living in the days before Jesus, you would have had to offer burnt sacrifices unto the Lord, but now you have direct access to God's salvation through Jesus Christ.'

(I've been around way to many Christians...)

These arguments are, of course, based on the assumption that what the Bible says is true.

Has anyone watched the documentary Did Jesus Die?

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/did-jesus-die/

I found it pretty interesting. Some of the conspiracy theories about Jesus' death seem far-fetched; but when you think about it, none of them are as far-fetched as believing that he actually rose from the dead and ascended into heaven to be seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

*Spoiler Alert*

One theory states that he survived his crucifixion. Lots of little pieces of evidence cited by the scholars in the documentary support this, including the following:

- It was possible to survive crucifixion
- He was on the cross for a shorter amount of time than that of most crucifixions
- Unlike the thieves alongside of him, his legs were never broken to hasten his death
- After he was given a substance to drink on a sponge (the Bible claims it was vinegar), he appeared to have lost consciousness
- The centurion who said, 'Surely he was the son of God!' was the one who checked to see if he was dead
- Two of his followers took his body
- The herbs brought to him by these followers were revival herbs and not embalming herbs
- Either the Hebrew or Greek (I can't remember which one...) word for 'resurrection' is more similar to 'resuscitation'
- It was not until several years after his death that his disciples realised that his Second Coming was not in a literal sense, in his human body

...At least these claims are made in the video. I haven't checked to verify them. I do suppose, though, that one of the best ways to make it seem as though you have risen from the dead is never to die in the first place. There is one (extremely controversial) theory that claims he survived and then escaped to the East to reclaim the ten lost tribes of Israel. A connection is formed between the three wise men of the East who followed the Star of Bethlehem to find the Christ Child and the Buddhist leaders' search for the new lama. Apparently they would follow astronomical signs - sometimes stars - to find the child who would become the new leader of the Buddhist faith.

The fact that we have no record of Jesus' life between the ages of 14 and 29 also provide support for this theory. It has been posited that Jesus moved to Kashmir during this period to be trained in the ways of Buddhism. There are records of a man from Israel living in Kashmir during that period of his life. It would make sense if Jesus' teachings had been influenced by Buddhism due to the stark differences between the writings of the Old and New Testaments. The Old Testament is filled with God's extensive rules and the ongoing punishments of the Israelites, while the New Testament advocates ideals of compassion for the suffering and the equality of all men, rich and poor.

There are also records that this man returned to Kashmir at around the time Jesus was crucified. His remains are buried there. Since it is a religious site, we are unable to exhume his body to see whether it shows signs of having been crucified. We do, however, have a record of his footprints, which have semi-circles on the inner parts of his feet. This is the pattern we would expect to find if his feet had been nailed to the cross with his left foot over his right.

Like I said, this theory is very controversial, and its validity is doubted by many. Nevertheless, I do find it interesting. Obviously something very spectacular transpired to have left such an indelible mark on history. And the Gospels are not the most reliable... The Gospel of Mark initially ended before Jesus' resurrection. More was added about 200 years after his crucifixion (if I remember correctly), and the Gospels provide conflicting accounts. The Gospels themselves were written decades after the events took place and were not initially accepted as part of the Bible.

Does anyone else have any theories regarding the Resurrection or who Jesus was?

As flies to wanton boys are we to the gods;
They kill us for their sport.
- Shakespeare's King Lear
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07-09-2011, 12:36 AM
RE: The Resurrection Means Nothing
(06-09-2011 12:38 PM)nontheocrat Wrote:  Does anyone else have any theories regarding the Resurrection or who Jesus was?

I don't think the Jesus of the bible ever existed. There may have been a preacher running around the general area of that name about that time, but he would have been one of many. The evidence that the Jesus of the bible ever existed is very slim,
the evidence from out side the bible has been proven to be false, and the NT was written 40 to 70 years after the supposed events ever took place.

The Resurrection never happened. Its a fairy story.

I want for myself what I want for every women, absolute equality. Agnes Macphail
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07-09-2011, 09:31 AM
RE: The Resurrection Means Nothing
My best guess is that Jesus existed. He pissed off the Romans and some of his own people. He got crucified for this but survived. He recovered but the news got out that he was still alive. To stop the Romans or anyone else coming after Jesus again they made up a story about him being resurected but more importantly went to heaven to stop people looking for him. He cleared out to somewhere no-one knew him.
That could explain the resurrection story.
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07-09-2011, 11:26 AM
RE: The Resurrection Means Nothing
(06-09-2011 12:38 PM)nontheocrat Wrote:  The Christian heaven is even worse than that! If no one can sin any longer then the supposed "free will" that is so necessary in this life is revoked. This makes all the Christians who go there are nothing more than automatons with no freedom.

The inability to sin makes complete free will possible. During this life we are capable of doing things that are wrong so when we want to do something we have to consider whether or not it is right or wrong and this need places limitations on our freedom of action. In heaven, whenever a person has a desire to do something he can act on it immediately because he knows that it can't be wrong or have any harmful affects.

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
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07-09-2011, 12:06 PM
RE: The Resurrection Means Nothing
(07-09-2011 11:26 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(06-09-2011 12:38 PM)nontheocrat Wrote:  The Christian heaven is even worse than that! If no one can sin any longer then the supposed "free will" that is so necessary in this life is revoked. This makes all the Christians who go there are nothing more than automatons with no freedom.

The inability to sin makes complete free will possible. During this life we are capable of doing things that are wrong so when we want to do something we have to consider whether or not it is right or wrong and this need places limitations on our freedom of action. In heaven, whenever a person has a desire to do something he can act on it immediately because he knows that it can't be wrong or have any harmful affects.

But by your own accord, you cannot choose to do anything deemed "wrong" by the bible. Like eat shellfish, fornicate out of wedlock, work on Sundays, etc. So if I cannot do something because I am in a place that prohibits it, what free will do I have? The free will to do what god tells me I can do? That is not free will. That would be god's will.

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
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07-09-2011, 03:00 PM
RE: The Resurrection Means Nothing
(07-09-2011 11:26 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(06-09-2011 12:38 PM)nontheocrat Wrote:  The Christian heaven is even worse than that! If no one can sin any longer then the supposed "free will" that is so necessary in this life is revoked. This makes all the Christians who go there are nothing more than automatons with no freedom.

The inability to sin makes complete free will possible. During this life we are capable of doing things that are wrong so when we want to do something we have to consider whether or not it is right or wrong and this need places limitations on our freedom of action. In heaven, whenever a person has a desire to do something he can act on it immediately because he knows that it can't be wrong or have any harmful affects.

OK, how can you not see the big gaping hole in your logic?

If we can have free will without the ability to sin then why waste time by putting us in this universe (where we can sin) in the first place? A god who could have created us simultaneously "free from sin" and "with free will" and yet chose to make us able to sin (and be punished) would be the most sadistic monster ever dreamed up by humanity!

“There is no sin except stupidity.” Oscar Wilde
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07-09-2011, 09:32 PM
RE: The Resurrection Means Nothing
(06-09-2011 12:38 PM)nontheocrat Wrote:  So we are left with an eternity of pain and suffering in a lake of fire, or an eternity of slavery with no free will.

Which one is the real hell?

The Lake of Fire. Seriously. They both kind of suck. But one leaves me with no free will because I am an automaton... the other leaves me with no free will because I'm too busy being on fire to act on it Big Grin

I am reminded of a line from a piece of religious fiction (Hint: In this story, God is a collosal dick). It's a line thought by the the host around gods throne. As the armies of mankind are basically curb-stomping the armies of hell, an angel is reporting to Yahweh. The poor soul forced to constantly sing Yahwehs praises for eternity, wonders that if mankind can also destroy Heaven, and that perhaps there would be salvation from salvation.
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