The Resurrection Means Nothing
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08-09-2011, 10:34 AM
RE: The Resurrection Means Nothing
(07-09-2011 12:06 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  So if I cannot do something because I am in a place that prohibits it, what free will do I have?
Free will means the ability to do whatever you want to do. As long as we sometimes want to do things that are wrong there are times we must refrain from doing what we want because of the harmful consequences. We can't truly have free will until the sinful nature that makes us want to do things that are wrong is removed.

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
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08-09-2011, 10:45 AM
RE: The Resurrection Means Nothing
(07-09-2011 09:32 PM)Sines Wrote:  I am reminded of a line from a piece of religious fiction (Hint: In this story, God is a collosal dick). It's a line thought by the the host around gods throne. As the armies of mankind are basically curb-stomping the armies of hell, an angel is reporting to Yahweh. The poor soul forced to constantly sing Yahwehs praises for eternity, wonders that if mankind can also destroy Heaven, and that perhaps there would be salvation from salvation.

What book is this?

Of all the ideas put forth by science, it is the principle of Superposition that can undo any power of the gods. For the accumulation of smaller actions has the ability to create, destroy, and move the world.

"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." -W. E. Henley
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08-09-2011, 11:05 AM
RE: The Resurrection Means Nothing
(08-09-2011 10:34 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(07-09-2011 12:06 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  So if I cannot do something because I am in a place that prohibits it, what free will do I have?
Free will means the ability to do whatever you want to do. As long as we sometimes want to do things that are wrong there are times we must refrain from doing what we want because of the harmful consequences. We can't truly have free will until the sinful nature that makes us want to do things that are wrong is removed.

So your definition of free will is the ability to do whatever you want, within a set of constructed guidelines that restrict what you can and cannot do? Despite the fact that you may want to do something outside of those guidelines you are incapable, but still have free will...

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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08-09-2011, 12:14 PM (This post was last modified: 08-09-2011 12:17 PM by nontheocrat.)
RE: The Resurrection Means Nothing
(08-09-2011 10:34 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(07-09-2011 12:06 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  So if I cannot do something because I am in a place that prohibits it, what free will do I have?
Free will means the ability to do whatever you want to do. As long as we sometimes want to do things that are wrong there are times we must refrain from doing what we want because of the harmful consequences. We can't truly have free will until the sinful nature that makes us want to do things that are wrong is removed.

Then what is the point of giving us the sinful nature in the first place? Wouldn't it have made more sense to make us all without the sinful nature from the beginning? Sounds like your god just wanted an excuse to torture some people.

Surely you must be aware that you have created an entirely new set of problems with your ideas.

When theologians were first approached with The Problem of Evil they came up with Free Will as an escape mechanism. It went like this:

A. God is all powerful.

B. God knows everything.

C. God hates evil.

Which led to the question "how can evil exist?" God is powerful enough to distroy evil, he knows how to eliminate it and he cannot tolerate it, so we shouldn't have any evil in the universe if god exists. The only escape theologians had was to say that god had to allow evil (us to sin) because he had to let us have free will.

Theo, you have just informed us that free will can (and will) coincide with an inability to commit evil; therefore you have just reintroduced The Problem of Evil and removed gods only excuse for allowing it to exist.

Since we see evil in the world we must conclude that your god is nonexistent.

“There is no sin except stupidity.” Oscar Wilde
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09-09-2011, 10:40 AM
RE: The Resurrection Means Nothing
(08-09-2011 12:14 PM)nontheocrat Wrote:  Since we see evil in the world we must conclude that your god is nonexistent.
There is one other point you failed to take into consideration. God is infinite and our minds are finite so there are some things about him and his actions that we simply can't understand. The reason he allows evil is one of these things.

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
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09-09-2011, 10:54 AM
RE: The Resurrection Means Nothing
(09-09-2011 10:40 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(08-09-2011 12:14 PM)nontheocrat Wrote:  Since we see evil in the world we must conclude that your god is nonexistent.
There is one other point you failed to take into consideration. God is infinite and our minds are finite so there are some things about him and his actions that we simply can't understand. The reason he allows evil is one of these things.

And as for my argument?...

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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09-09-2011, 11:36 AM
RE: The Resurrection Means Nothing
(09-09-2011 10:40 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(08-09-2011 12:14 PM)nontheocrat Wrote:  Since we see evil in the world we must conclude that your god is nonexistent.
There is one other point you failed to take into consideration. God is infinite and our minds are finite so there are some things about him and his actions that we simply can't understand. The reason he allows evil is one of these things.

That's the best you can come up with? The old "his ways are higher than our ways" chestnut? LOL!

Put a star in my column, I just won!

“There is no sin except stupidity.” Oscar Wilde
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09-09-2011, 05:02 PM
RE: The Resurrection Means Nothing
(06-09-2011 08:54 PM)Ava_Rose Wrote:  
(06-09-2011 12:38 PM)nontheocrat Wrote:  If Jesus can absolve all the sins of humanity by being dead 3 days, then how could any sin I commit merit eternal punishment? Based on the scale of Jesus debt for everyone I should get a pin-prick and be in the grave a few seconds to pay for just mine. I could do that!

I think I know what a believer might say - something like, 'You can't absolve your own self of your sins! You don't have that power since you're not God. Only God can take away sins. If you were living in the days before Jesus, you would have had to offer burnt sacrifices unto the Lord, but now you have direct access to God's salvation through Jesus Christ.'

(I've been around way to many Christians...)

These arguments are, of course, based on the assumption that what the Bible says is true.

Has anyone watched the documentary Did Jesus Die?

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/did-jesus-die/

I found it pretty interesting. Some of the conspiracy theories about Jesus' death seem far-fetched; but when you think about it, none of them are as far-fetched as believing that he actually rose from the dead and ascended into heaven to be seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

*Spoiler Alert*

One theory states that he survived his crucifixion. Lots of little pieces of evidence cited by the scholars in the documentary support this, including the following:

- It was possible to survive crucifixion
- He was on the cross for a shorter amount of time than that of most crucifixions
- Unlike the thieves alongside of him, his legs were never broken to hasten his death
- After he was given a substance to drink on a sponge (the Bible claims it was vinegar), he appeared to have lost consciousness
- The centurion who said, 'Surely he was the son of God!' was the one who checked to see if he was dead
- Two of his followers took his body
- The herbs brought to him by these followers were revival herbs and not embalming herbs
- Either the Hebrew or Greek (I can't remember which one...) word for 'resurrection' is more similar to 'resuscitation'
- It was not until several years after his death that his disciples realised that his Second Coming was not in a literal sense, in his human body

...At least these claims are made in the video. I haven't checked to verify them. I do suppose, though, that one of the best ways to make it seem as though you have risen from the dead is never to die in the first place. There is one (extremely controversial) theory that claims he survived and then escaped to the East to reclaim the ten lost tribes of Israel. A connection is formed between the three wise men of the East who followed the Star of Bethlehem to find the Christ Child and the Buddhist leaders' search for the new lama. Apparently they would follow astronomical signs - sometimes stars - to find the child who would become the new leader of the Buddhist faith.

The fact that we have no record of Jesus' life between the ages of 14 and 29 also provide support for this theory. It has been posited that Jesus moved to Kashmir during this period to be trained in the ways of Buddhism. There are records of a man from Israel living in Kashmir during that period of his life. It would make sense if Jesus' teachings had been influenced by Buddhism due to the stark differences between the writings of the Old and New Testaments. The Old Testament is filled with God's extensive rules and the ongoing punishments of the Israelites, while the New Testament advocates ideals of compassion for the suffering and the equality of all men, rich and poor.

There are also records that this man returned to Kashmir at around the time Jesus was crucified. His remains are buried there. Since it is a religious site, we are unable to exhume his body to see whether it shows signs of having been crucified. We do, however, have a record of his footprints, which have semi-circles on the inner parts of his feet. This is the pattern we would expect to find if his feet had been nailed to the cross with his left foot over his right.

Like I said, this theory is very controversial, and its validity is doubted by many. Nevertheless, I do find it interesting. Obviously something very spectacular transpired to have left such an indelible mark on history. And the Gospels are not the most reliable... The Gospel of Mark initially ended before Jesus' resurrection. More was added about 200 years after his crucifixion (if I remember correctly), and the Gospels provide conflicting accounts. The Gospels themselves were written decades after the events took place and were not initially accepted as part of the Bible.

Does anyone else have any theories regarding the Resurrection or who Jesus was?

Fascinating! I'm going to check out that documentary for sure. I find all these theories quite interesting.

Personally, I think Jesus might have been a real dude. As for the resurrection, I can see that the possibility may have existed for him to have survived...but I find it more beleivable to think that the authors of the gospel greatly exaggerated and made up the resurrection. This is based solely on feelings and impressions, not actual research.

We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers.

- Carl Sagan
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15-09-2011, 05:54 PM
RE: The Resurrection Means Nothing
I started this thread. Been gone a couple of days. It's fascinating to see how the discussion morphed from the fraud of the resurrection to discussions of boredom in heaven and freewill.
Cool stuff.
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