The Santa issue
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13-11-2013, 11:04 PM (This post was last modified: 14-11-2013 05:23 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: The Santa issue
What is this thread even about ?
What do you mean there's no Santa ?
I left cookies out last year and they were gone.
You people are fucked up.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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14-11-2013, 04:56 AM
RE: The Santa issue
I've thought about it a bit, and I decided that if I ever have kids, I wouldn't be ok with lying to them by telling them (either directly or by implication) that something exists when it doesn't. I simply wouldn't feel right about it. There are other ways I could make Christmas just as fun without inserting a non-existent protagonist into it.

Through profound pain comes profound knowledge.
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14-11-2013, 05:10 AM
RE: The Santa issue
If I ever reproduce, then I won't tell my kids Santa exists. I don't even celebrate Christmas, so I guess I have nothing to worry about. I might even encourage them to tell the kids in their school. That could be fun. Smile

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14-11-2013, 06:45 AM
RE: The Santa issue
I don't lie to my children about Santa when they ask questions. If one of them says something about Santa I ask them "what do you think about that?". I don't actively engage or actively dismiss the topic. When it comes around to Christmas I do tell my children that Santa is coming and they need to go to bed. We do get the carrots out for the reindeer and some kind of treat out for Santa. I encourage writing a small note for Santa, and Santa replies by the morning. Sometimes carrot scraps appear below the manhole cover that grants access to our ceiling crawlspace.

My seven year old started asking questions a year or two ago, and my answers were always in terms of questions in return... neither encouraging or discouraging belief. She started characterising the known properties of the Santa-being and quietly questioning them, but not really being sure if she wanted to peer behind the curtain. Eventually she started to think about the topic seriously and said "I think Santa isn't real. I think it's your parents who bring presents in the night time". I said "Good job. You figured it out. You'll still get presents even if you don't believe Wink You don't need to tell your brother though. I want him to figure it out in his own time.".

Mr 4 has just started asking questions about the properties of the Santa-being. He raised the issue today of Santa seeing you all the time and knowing whether you're being bad or good. I asked him whether he thinks he's been good enough for presents this year, or whether he thought he might get coal instead. I'll let him stew on this belief system of his for a while and explore it in his own way at his own pace.

I handle the god-belief question in a similar way, and have had similar results.

To me the whole thing is a positive exercise in developing critical thinking skills. I encourage parents to participate in it.

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14-11-2013, 10:54 AM
RE: The Santa issue
(14-11-2013 04:56 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  I've thought about it a bit, and I decided that if I ever have kids, I wouldn't be ok with lying to them by telling them (either directly or by implication) that something exists when it doesn't. I simply wouldn't feel right about it. There are other ways I could make Christmas just as fun without inserting a non-existent protagonist into it.

One of the things I was very careful about telling my kids was NEVER tell a younger child that Santa isn't real.

Believing in Santa is fun, and it really only lasts a few years. The excitement when you've uncovered the one thing they really want and they get from the fat man, well ya that can be slightly off-putting but the memories they have...

My oldest still talks about the time he didn't think he was getting something for Christmas and Santa brought it. Now he thanks me for it, and even asked how I found it...

My kids are grown or growing up so fast but there was something unbelievably fun about those years.

Now that said, I never did the tooth fairy or the whole Easter bunny thing...

Well easter we did when they were really small...and it was fun to color eggs and hide them...but we left the bunny out....because I really thought Santa was enough.

With Christmas it's hard because the whole Santa thing is everywhere....TV media...

I dunno...

Some of my best memories of my kids surround those days....I have soooo many pictures of my kids sitting on Santa's lap...

My favorite is one where my youngest has just begun crying and my oldest has this devilish look in his eyes....Like he just knows the little shit just made the naughty list...

That's the other thing, the excitement for my kids when they were smaller Oy...it was horrible sometimes because they just couldn't contain themselves...Ya, I used Santa as a weapon while I could get away with it..

I guess the point is that it's not about you...It's about creating a bit of fantasy for very small children. No reaches Jr High still believing in the fat man in red.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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14-11-2013, 11:10 AM
RE: The Santa issue
(14-11-2013 06:45 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  I don't lie to my children about Santa when they ask questions. If one of them says something about Santa I ask them "what do you think about that?". I don't actively engage or actively dismiss the topic. When it comes around to Christmas I do tell my children that Santa is coming and they need to go to bed. We do get the carrots out for the reindeer and some kind of treat out for Santa. I encourage writing a small note for Santa, and Santa replies by the morning. Sometimes carrot scraps appear below the manhole cover that grants access to our ceiling crawlspace.

My seven year old started asking questions a year or two ago, and my answers were always in terms of questions in return... neither encouraging or discouraging belief. She started characterising the known properties of the Santa-being and quietly questioning them, but not really being sure if she wanted to peer behind the curtain. Eventually she started to think about the topic seriously and said "I think Santa isn't real. I think it's your parents who bring presents in the night time". I said "Good job. You figured it out. You'll still get presents even if you don't believe Wink You don't need to tell your brother though. I want him to figure it out in his own time.".

Mr 4 has just started asking questions about the properties of the Santa-being. He raised the issue today of Santa seeing you all the time and knowing whether you're being bad or good. I asked him whether he thinks he's been good enough for presents this year, or whether he thought he might get coal instead. I'll let him stew on this belief system of his for a while and explore it in his own way at his own pace.

I handle the god-belief question in a similar way, and have had similar results.

To me the whole thing is a positive exercise in developing critical thinking skills. I encourage parents to participate in it.

One year I borrowed a neighbor's work boots and left soot marks on the floor going from the fireplace to the tree...stopping at the table to eat the cookies and drink the milk...LOL Yes, it was a bit of mess to clean up.

My oldest was around 5 at that time and slowly beginning to disbelieve...He held on for a few more years but I think it was more about his younger brother at that time. When he finally asked and I told him -- we included him in it. Helping set up toys that Santa would bring....He got to eat the cookies....He got to stay up later...

When I told my younger son, I was a bit worried (he's on spectrum for autism) I think he was in 5h grade and his reaction was along the lines of 'good now I don't have to wait in line to see Santa...No more stupid pictures...'

One thing odd about my kids...they NEVER woke up early on Christmas morning. Like ever. WE always had to wake them up when they were little. It wasn't until they were older and we'd grown used to sleeping in....they actually began waking us up at the butt crack of dawn. Now we're back to sleeping in...

Unless of course, my mother-in-law wakes them up and they wake us...My goodness that woman is WORSE than a child.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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14-11-2013, 11:29 AM
RE: The Santa issue
(13-11-2013 11:04 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  What is this thread even about ?
What do you mean there's no Santa ?
I left cookies out last year and they were gone.
You people are fucked up.

YES!

In our house, Santa visits. And the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, as well as the little lucky leprechaun. When we take a ferry to Vancouver island we look for mermaids. When we hike the BC rain forests we watch for sasquatches. When we feel seaweed in the Okanogan lake we wonder if it's the ogopogo, and we buy the stuffie at the gift shop. When we see eggs in the trees by our house we wonder if a dragon hatched there.

We look for evidence and research these things, as well as other things like sharks, galaxies, the ISS, animal behaviour, natural disasters and many other things in our Universe and world.

Last week my 9 year old daughter asked me to tell the truth about Santa. We had the conversation and she is happy to be on the other team now. I was wondering how this would shake her world, and it did.

This week before bed she asked me to come talk to her. I came into her room and she asked me not to laugh, but that she had a question. She asked me, "Are dinosaurs real?" I LOVED that this was her question. Instead of saying yes or no, we went over what we knew about dinosaurs, who analyzes the evidence and information and what we can conclude from everything. She deduced they did exist and asked me if I thought the same, and I said I did after I was satisfied she made her choice on her own.

Critical thinking is a crucial skill, it's what helped me be where I am today, and I am not broken or ruined for believing in magic, it did help me discover reality and its beauty in the process.
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14-11-2013, 11:41 AM
RE: The Santa issue
Sorry li'l Bucky. Weeping
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A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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15-11-2013, 12:08 PM
RE: The Santa issue
(14-11-2013 10:54 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(14-11-2013 04:56 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  I've thought about it a bit, and I decided that if I ever have kids, I wouldn't be ok with lying to them by telling them (either directly or by implication) that something exists when it doesn't. I simply wouldn't feel right about it. There are other ways I could make Christmas just as fun without inserting a non-existent protagonist into it.

One of the things I was very careful about telling my kids was NEVER tell a younger child that Santa isn't real.

Believing in Santa is fun, and it really only lasts a few years. The excitement when you've uncovered the one thing they really want and they get from the fat man, well ya that can be slightly off-putting but the memories they have...

My oldest still talks about the time he didn't think he was getting something for Christmas and Santa brought it. Now he thanks me for it, and even asked how I found it...

My kids are grown or growing up so fast but there was something unbelievably fun about those years.

Now that said, I never did the tooth fairy or the whole Easter bunny thing...

Well easter we did when they were really small...and it was fun to color eggs and hide them...but we left the bunny out....because I really thought Santa was enough.

With Christmas it's hard because the whole Santa thing is everywhere....TV media...

I dunno...

Some of my best memories of my kids surround those days....I have soooo many pictures of my kids sitting on Santa's lap...

My favorite is one where my youngest has just begun crying and my oldest has this devilish look in his eyes....Like he just knows the little shit just made the naughty list...

That's the other thing, the excitement for my kids when they were smaller Oy...it was horrible sometimes because they just couldn't contain themselves...Ya, I used Santa as a weapon while I could get away with it..

I guess the point is that it's not about you...It's about creating a bit of fantasy for very small children. No reaches Jr High still believing in the fat man in red.

I figured I'd just not bring up Santa at all, rather than tell them he does or doesn't exist. I'd just leave the non-existent fantasy - fun thought it may be - out of it altogether. Just like I don't need to invent (or outrightly deny) magical bath-time fairies who drink the water into the drain when they're done taking a bath. It'd be fun, sure. And maybe they get all dried off and say goodnight to the bath-time fairies who live in the drain. But as fun as that might be if it were introduced, it simply wouldn't need to be introduced as a concept in the first place. "How does the water go away, daddy?" Well, how do you think it goes away, kiddo? Then we figure it out.

Same with the presents under the tree. "How did the presents get there, daddy?" Well, how do you think they got there, kiddo? Then we figure it out.

Again, I just can't justify lying to my kid. Fun though it may be.

Through profound pain comes profound knowledge.
Ridi, Pagliaccio, sul tuo amore infranto! Ridi del duol, che t'avvelena il cor!
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15-11-2013, 12:34 PM
RE: The Santa issue
I'm going to let mine believe until she starts asking questions.

My mother didn't come clean until too late IMO and my school was full of Jewish kids so it was easily to be made to feel the fool about these things.

I finally pieced it together after seeing pictures of the huts of African Catholics in some CCD care package thing, once I knew they where Catholic (my reasoning had always been "well they aren't christian") and I could clearly see that they lacked Nintendos and Power Wheels I knew the jig was up and I pressed my mom and reasoned with my sister, showing her my evidence and such until she supported me in my pressings and Mom came clean.

It also cracks me up that Santa is like a metaphor for belief in god. It should be the ultimate primer for Atheism, but people fail to make the connection.

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