The Scripture Problem
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24-04-2015, 02:13 AM
The Scripture Problem
Am I correct in assuming that

P1. An omniscient being wouldn't reveal himself to us in a way other false religions do i.e. scriptures, to avoid confusion and lead the maximum amount of people on the correct path.
P2. The Christian God is revealed in scriptures
P3. Therefore, the Bible is probably not the word of God

I say probably, because there are theist responses to this:
1. The Bible is different from any other scriptures because it's composed of many books written by loads of different people through the span of at least 1000 years (The Q'uran for example is dictated by one man - even if the Hadith is written by many)
2. God met the Jewish culture where they were in development; this would also explain some weird OT rules e.g. ones concerning slaves. Basis: Matthew 19:8 Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.
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24-04-2015, 03:58 AM
RE: The Scripture Problem
(24-04-2015 02:13 AM)emeraldcrown Wrote:  Am I correct in assuming that

P1. An omniscient being wouldn't reveal himself to us in a way other false religions do i.e. scriptures, to avoid confusion and lead the maximum amount of people on the correct path.
P2. The Christian God is revealed in scriptures
P3. Therefore, the Bible is probably not the word of God

I say probably, because there are theist responses to this:
1. The Bible is different from any other scriptures because it's composed of many books written by loads of different people through the span of at least 1000 years (The Q'uran for example is dictated by one man - even if the Hadith is written by many)
2. God met the Jewish culture where they were in development; this would also explain some weird OT rules e.g. ones concerning slaves. Basis: Matthew 19:8 Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.

Omniscient doesen't mean benevolent or hungry for worship so first assumption is or could be wrong. As for Bible - it is not word of god because there is no evidence pointing to existence of god.

Theists responses which you mention are not convincing. Only "proof" of god being real is Bible, which is supposed to be word of god, so we have a problem here.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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24-04-2015, 05:52 AM
RE: The Scripture Problem
What's your basis for P1? Not only do I see it as purely asserted, it doesn't even make sense to me.

Omniscience involves unlimited knowledge. How does that have anything to do with the motives on how the being would or wouldn't want to reveal itself to other beings?
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24-04-2015, 06:05 AM
RE: The Scripture Problem
I was operating under the assumption of the main God image in people's mind in the West, which includes omnibenevolence.
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24-04-2015, 06:36 AM
RE: The Scripture Problem
(24-04-2015 06:05 AM)emeraldcrown Wrote:  I was operating under the assumption of the main God image in people's mind in the West, which includes omnibenevolence.

God is doubleplusgood

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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24-04-2015, 08:14 AM
RE: The Scripture Problem
(24-04-2015 06:05 AM)emeraldcrown Wrote:  I was operating under the assumption of the main God image in people's mind in the West, which includes omnibenevolence.

Then say that instead of "omniscient" Tongue.

So, you're asking if an omnibenevolent god would show his existence in ways that would be unambiguous compared to "fake" gods? I have personally heard numerous Christian responses to this:
  • He does, with the Holy Spirit, and the Christian can feel it.
  • The Bible has a 100% success rate with prophesies* and is completely scientifically accurate**. No other religion can make this claim***.
  • God works in mysterious ways, and your puny mortal definition of "good" cannot be used to judge Almighty God.
But yeah, aside from ad hoc apologetics, you'd think a god that cares if we know he exists would actually show that he exists.

* It does not.
** It isn't.
*** Yes, they do.
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24-04-2015, 08:49 AM
RE: The Scripture Problem
(24-04-2015 08:14 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(24-04-2015 06:05 AM)emeraldcrown Wrote:  I was operating under the assumption of the main God image in people's mind in the West, which includes omnibenevolence.

Then say that instead of "omniscient" Tongue.

So, you're asking if an omnibenevolent god would show his existence in ways that would be unambiguous compared to "fake" gods? I have personally heard numerous Christian responses to this:
  • He does, with the Holy Spirit, and the Christian can feel it.
  • The Bible has a 100% success rate with prophesies* and is completely scientifically accurate**. No other religion can make this claim***.
  • God works in mysterious ways, and your puny mortal definition of "good" cannot be used to judge Almighty God.
But yeah, aside from ad hoc apologetics, you'd think a god that cares if we know he exists would actually show that he exists.

* It does not.
** It isn't.
*** Yes, they do.

Great points. Additionally, it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense that a god who is interested in communicating to the world via a book--would then do the whole Tower of Babel thing: "But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. The Lord said, 'If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.' That is why it is called Babel--because there the Lord
confused the language of the whole world. From there the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth." (Genesis 11:5-9). The Bible has been translated into many different languages over time and for many different cultures--which can cause the original meaning in the passages to get lost in translation.
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24-04-2015, 09:40 AM
RE: The Scripture Problem
(24-04-2015 06:05 AM)emeraldcrown Wrote:  I was operating under the assumption of the main God image in people's mind in the West, which includes omnibenevolence.

It is strange that there is someone that could assume that god - who for the sake of argument exist - indeed is omnibenevolent. One should look no further than Holodomor, Holocaust or Hutu and Tutsi genocide to be certain that if god exists then he is far from benevolent.

And concerning your initial post - if god would be omnibenevolent then I don't think he would care if you worship him, so what use he could have for some holy book?

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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24-04-2015, 09:46 AM
RE: The Scripture Problem
(24-04-2015 09:40 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(24-04-2015 06:05 AM)emeraldcrown Wrote:  I was operating under the assumption of the main God image in people's mind in the West, which includes omnibenevolence.

It is strange that there is someone that could assume that god - who for the sake of argument exist - indeed is omnibenevolent. One should look no further than Holodomor, Holocaust or Hutu and Tutsi genocide to be certain that if god exists then he is far from benevolent.

And concerning your initial post - if god would be omnibenevolent then I don't think he would care if you worship him, so what use he could have for some holy book?

Not too mention all the God sanctioned killings in the Bible alone.
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24-04-2015, 10:06 AM
RE: The Scripture Problem
(24-04-2015 09:46 AM)jennybee Wrote:  
(24-04-2015 09:40 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  It is strange that there is someone that could assume that god - who for the sake of argument exist - indeed is omnibenevolent. One should look no further than Holodomor, Holocaust or Hutu and Tutsi genocide to be certain that if god exists then he is far from benevolent.

And concerning your initial post - if god would be omnibenevolent then I don't think he would care if you worship him, so what use he could have for some holy book?

Not too mention all the God sanctioned killings in the Bible alone.

Certainly. But one could chalk it to Bible not being accurate in depicting god true character. Tragedy of XX century leave no place for argument, to me at least.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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