The Senates torture report
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18-12-2014, 06:21 PM
RE: The Senates torture report
Quote:No, I am just voicing my frustration over people's views on the shitty reality of war.

Hey, wait a minute. The army generally conducted itself quite well...abu Ghraib, excepted. When Bremer told the Army to shoot looters the generals rebelled and told him "no."

But these CIA fucks? Sorry man. This is just sadism unless you think someone who has been locked up for months can still have useful knowledge about these so-called "ticking bomb" operations that's worth torturing someone to obtain.

We have forfeited the moral high ground. Now, we are the bad guys.

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19-12-2014, 04:20 AM
RE: The Senates torture report
(17-12-2014 07:10 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Please don't misconstrue what I am saying....I got hot under the collar, I always do when people start whipping opinions about how we should conduct warfare..when you are in the shit, and have to worry about all these get-you-killed-rules it just frustrates the hell out of you. We have to be better than these pieces of human garbage...but for example, if one of those school shooters in Pakistan survived, and I was in charge of interrogating him....I don't want to think about how far I would go to squeeze him until he popped........this shit just dehumanizes you...that is the problem with war. How do you walk into a school and shoot 141 kids? How? I am so mad I can't see straight.

UGh

Hope I didn't offend anyone or make you think less of me...but it gets me spun up when people boohoo over the way these "still alive" terrorists were "inhumanely" treated by the CIA contractors.......I can not honestly say I would do different...I would like to think I woould...but you never know until you are in that situation....again, I am too personally and emotionally involved. 3 tours in Iraq was enough for me. I dont ever want to go back...just want to retire in a year and get me a non military related job, build a house and spend my last years holding my angel and being thankful I am alive to do so...

My anger isn't with you and your fellow soldiers who continuously get the short end of the stick, it's with the assholes in charge. War is hell and mistakes are made, which is why war should always be a last resort and not the first. But when you have the world's most powerful military, well, what's that old adage about how every problem looks like a nail when you're wielding a hammer?

I have a problem with the messy summary execution of 'terrorists' by civilians through drone strikes, especially when they're quite often involved in the killing of more civilians; making us just as culpable of the label of 'terrorist' as those we kill. How can we be anything but not at all surprised that we are the best recruitment tool the 'terrorists' have? I have a problem with us holding people in prison and torturing them for well over a decade without ever charging them of a crime, keeping them in legal limbo when it appears that many of them had nothing to do with our enemies. That is not justice, and we have forfeited any right to claim we fight for it. I have a problem with us entering into war under false pretenses, and ever after finding out and seeing those who did so brazenly lied to us brag about doing it, we are unable to charge them for their war crimes.

I have a problem with our state sanctioned hypocrisy, and not just that it is hypocrisy, but that most of our fellow citizens are so misinformed that they don't even realize it's hypocrisy. I have a problem with our massive military-industrial-complex that seems more concerned with spying on our own citizens than protecting us from attack, and when the truth of this comes to light, we attack the whistle-blowers and label them 'terrorists' as well.

I hate the fact that we've so maligned the word 'terrorist' with over application and misuse so as to make the word meaningless.

While I may hate what happened at Abu Ghraib, most of it is saved not for those within the meat-grinder itself, it's for those who constructed and continue to roll the crank on said meat-grinder. I don't hate you GWG, I hate those who forced you and your comrades into those positions unnecessarily. I'm angry at those concerned only with what you could do for them, but can't be bothered to see after the survivors. I'm angry at those who would toss away your lives so recklessly; and I'm angry at all of us for allowing that to happen.

And for that, I am sorry.

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19-12-2014, 11:35 AM (This post was last modified: 19-12-2014 11:39 AM by Res Publica.)
RE: The Senates torture report
(16-12-2014 04:49 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(16-12-2014 11:52 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  Because Iraq was so much better off under fascism.Rolleyes

With the exception of the Kurds they kind of were.

"Ignoring the thousands of people who were killed in the most brutal of methods for no other reason than their race, everything was okay."

Same logic could be used for Nazi Germany. Do you also think the bombing of Dresden was wrong?

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19-12-2014, 03:49 PM
RE: The Senates torture report
(19-12-2014 11:35 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  
(16-12-2014 04:49 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  With the exception of the Kurds they kind of were.

"Ignoring the thousands of people who were killed in the most brutal of methods for no other reason than their race, everything was okay."

Same logic could be used for Nazi Germany. Do you also think the bombing of Dresden was wrong?

Likewise if it's okay to fire-bomb civilians in order to cut off their support to our enemies, then how can you ever cry foul of anyone else?

The Allies targeted civilians in Dresend to weaken the Nazis.

Saddam gassed the Kurds to weaken their uprising.

The Taliban targeted the WTC to weaken the United States.

The United States currently targets 'terrorists' with drones in Pakistan to weaken the Taliban (but often miss and kill plenty of civilians instead).

So how do you distinguish which ones are acts of terrorism? Who are the despots? Who are the war criminals? Which ones are justified? Can they even be justified?

How can you tell?

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19-12-2014, 04:31 PM
RE: The Senates torture report
(19-12-2014 03:49 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(19-12-2014 11:35 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  "Ignoring the thousands of people who were killed in the most brutal of methods for no other reason than their race, everything was okay."

Same logic could be used for Nazi Germany. Do you also think the bombing of Dresden was wrong?

Likewise if it's okay to fire-bomb civilians in order to cut off their support to our enemies, then how can you ever cry foul of anyone else?

The Allies targeted civilians in Dresend to weaken the Nazis.

Saddam gassed the Kurds to weaken their uprising.

The Taliban targeted the WTC to weaken the United States.

The United States currently targets 'terrorists' with drones in Pakistan to weaken the Taliban (but often miss and kill plenty of civilians instead).

So how do you distinguish which ones are acts of terrorism? Who are the despots? Who are the war criminals? Which ones are justified? Can they even be justified?

How can you tell?

Acts against people he doesn't like are good.

Acts against people he likes are bad.

Simple, really. I mean, come on, EK, you really ought to have known that one already.
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19-12-2014, 06:37 PM
RE: The Senates torture report
(19-12-2014 03:49 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(19-12-2014 11:35 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  "Ignoring the thousands of people who were killed in the most brutal of methods for no other reason than their race, everything was okay."

Same logic could be used for Nazi Germany. Do you also think the bombing of Dresden was wrong?

Likewise if it's okay to fire-bomb civilians in order to cut off their support to our enemies, then how can you ever cry foul of anyone else?

The Allies targeted civilians in Dresend to weaken the Nazis.

Saddam gassed the Kurds to weaken their uprising.

The Taliban targeted the WTC to weaken the United States.

The United States currently targets 'terrorists' with drones in Pakistan to weaken the Taliban (but often miss and kill plenty of civilians instead).

So how do you distinguish which ones are acts of terrorism? Who are the despots? Who are the war criminals? Which ones are justified? Can they even be justified?

How can you tell?

So I take it you are against the Allied bombing of Dresden? Are you seriously comparing it to the Kurdish genocide or 9/11?

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19-12-2014, 09:03 PM (This post was last modified: 19-12-2014 09:13 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: The Senates torture report
(17-12-2014 07:24 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  My only problem with this is IF they were not hard core terrorists entering GITMO, they were exiting it.

Not only them but a shitload of others using the improper detainment and treatment of those that were not hard-core terrorists to recruit hard-core terrorists. The Law of Unintended Consequences. We didn't think that shit out at all.

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20-12-2014, 12:07 AM (This post was last modified: 20-12-2014 04:16 AM by Revenant77x.)
RE: The Senates torture report
(19-12-2014 06:37 PM)Res Publica Wrote:  
(19-12-2014 03:49 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Likewise if it's okay to fire-bomb civilians in order to cut off their support to our enemies, then how can you ever cry foul of anyone else?

The Allies targeted civilians in Dresend to weaken the Nazis.

Saddam gassed the Kurds to weaken their uprising.

The Taliban targeted the WTC to weaken the United States.

The United States currently targets 'terrorists' with drones in Pakistan to weaken the Taliban (but often miss and kill plenty of civilians instead).

So how do you distinguish which ones are acts of terrorism? Who are the despots? Who are the war criminals? Which ones are justified? Can they even be justified?

How can you tell?

So I take it you are against the Allied bombing of Dresden? Are you seriously comparing it to the Kurdish genocide or 9/11?

Yes, Dresden was a war crime. It had 0 strategic value, it was not a military or industrial center which is why it had not been targeted by the allied bombing campaign up to that point. Then they glassed the entire city in 1 night just to make a point. The allies were not choirboys and they committed quite a few atrocities that were swept under the rug since it seemed in bad taste to try and prosecute "our boys" when there were nazi's to try.

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20-12-2014, 01:17 AM (This post was last modified: 20-12-2014 01:22 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: The Senates torture report
(19-12-2014 06:37 PM)Res Publica Wrote:  
(19-12-2014 03:49 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Likewise if it's okay to fire-bomb civilians in order to cut off their support to our enemies, then how can you ever cry foul of anyone else?

The Allies targeted civilians in Dresend to weaken the Nazis.

Saddam gassed the Kurds to weaken their uprising.

The Taliban targeted the WTC to weaken the United States.

The United States currently targets 'terrorists' with drones in Pakistan to weaken the Taliban (but often miss and kill plenty of civilians instead).

So how do you distinguish which ones are acts of terrorism? Who are the despots? Who are the war criminals? Which ones are justified? Can they even be justified?

How can you tell?

So I take it you are against the Allied bombing of Dresden? Are you seriously comparing it to the Kurdish genocide or 9/11?

I just did. All 3 were cases where lethal force was purposely used against civilians to kill them and intimidate the survivors for political aims. In other words, terrorism.

But history is written by the victors, so it's only ever 'terrorism' when it's performed by 'them' and not 'us'. Convenient, right?

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20-12-2014, 07:29 AM
RE: The Senates torture report
(20-12-2014 12:07 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(19-12-2014 06:37 PM)Res Publica Wrote:  So I take it you are against the Allied bombing of Dresden? Are you seriously comparing it to the Kurdish genocide or 9/11?

Yes, Dresden was a war crime. It had 0 strategic value, it was not a military or industrial center which is why it had not been targeted by the allied bombing campaign up to that point. Then they glassed the entire city in 1 night just to make a point. The allies were not choirboys and they committed quite a few atrocities that were swept under the rug since it seemed in bad taste to try and prosecute "our boys" when there were nazi's to try.
(20-12-2014 01:17 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(19-12-2014 06:37 PM)Res Publica Wrote:  So I take it you are against the Allied bombing of Dresden? Are you seriously comparing it to the Kurdish genocide or 9/11?

I just did. All 3 were cases where lethal force was purposely used against civilians to kill them and intimidate the survivors for political aims. In other words, terrorism.

But history is written by the victors, so it's only ever 'terrorism' when it's performed by 'them' and not 'us'. Convenient, right?

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I knew you two were assholes, but I never would have guessed that you were sympathetic to nazism.

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