The Senates torture report
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20-12-2014, 07:40 AM
RE: The Senates torture report
(20-12-2014 07:29 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  I knew you two were assholes, but I never would have guessed that you were sympathetic to nazism.

You seem to be purposely misunderstanding their point Drinking Beverage

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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20-12-2014, 07:45 AM (This post was last modified: 20-12-2014 07:57 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: The Senates torture report
(20-12-2014 07:29 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  
(20-12-2014 12:07 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Yes, Dresden was a war crime. It had 0 strategic value, it was not a military or industrial center which is why it had not been targeted by the allied bombing campaign up to that point. Then they glassed the entire city in 1 night just to make a point. The allies were not choirboys and they committed quite a few atrocities that were swept under the rug since it seemed in bad taste to try and prosecute "our boys" when there were nazi's to try.
(20-12-2014 01:17 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I just did. All 3 were cases where lethal force was purposely used against civilians to kill them and intimidate the survivors for political aims. In other words, terrorism.

But history is written by the victors, so it's only ever 'terrorism' when it's performed by 'them' and not 'us'. Convenient, right?

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I knew you two were assholes, but I never would have guessed that you were sympathetic to nazism.

Hey fuktard! There is a difference between being sympathetic with the assholes specifically responsible for instrumenting and carrying out the genocide, and acknowledging that we collectively cannot lay claim to the moral high-ground when we are also complicit in the purposeful targeting and killing of civilians. Would the Nazis have been more justified in killing all of the Jews and gypsies had they been working in Allied factories or living in Allied cities and they instead just carpet bombed the shit out of them from the air instead of gassing them to death in camps? Would the outcome not be the same? Oh, but then they could label them 'collateral damage' and it would all be okay then, right? Make them out to be a strategic objective to be smashed, and suddenly we can wash our hands clean of their blood? What's good for the goose is good for the gander, am I right?

But once again, as should surprise nobody who has read any of your posts, you paint with far too broad of a brush and lack the ability to grasp context and nuance.

The true asshole here is the one incapable of divorcing themselves from their clearly professed biases, and who ignores the faults of his in-group while hypocritically decrying the same short-comings in their adversaries. I'm not an asshole for calling the spade a spade, you're the asshole for being offended that I can see the spade for what it is, no matter how much you'd like it to be a shovel.

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20-12-2014, 09:08 AM
RE: The Senates torture report
(20-12-2014 07:45 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(20-12-2014 07:29 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  I knew you two were assholes, but I never would have guessed that you were sympathetic to nazism.

Hey fuktard! There is a difference between being sympathetic with the assholes specifically responsible for instrumenting and carrying out the genocide, and acknowledging that we collectively cannot lay claim to the moral high-ground when we are also complicit in the purposeful targeting and killing of civilians. Would the Nazis have been more justified in killing all of the Jews and gypsies had they been working in Allied factories or living in Allied cities and they instead just carpet bombed the shit out of them from the air instead of gassing them to death in camps? Would the outcome not be the same? Oh, but then they could label them 'collateral damage' and it would all be okay then, right? Make them out to be a strategic objective to be smashed, and suddenly we can wash our hands clean of their blood? What's good for the goose is good for the gander, am I right?

But once again, as should surprise nobody who has read any of your posts, you paint with far too broad of a brush and lack the ability to grasp context and nuance.

The true asshole here is the one incapable of divorcing themselves from their clearly professed biases, and who ignores the faults of his in-group while hypocritically decrying the same short-comings in their adversaries. I'm not an asshole for calling the spade a spade, you're the asshole for being offended that I can see the spade for what it is, no matter how much you'd like it to be a shovel.

....actually a really good point EK Consider

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20-12-2014, 10:04 AM (This post was last modified: 20-12-2014 10:09 AM by BnW.)
RE: The Senates torture report
(19-12-2014 11:35 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  
(16-12-2014 04:49 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  With the exception of the Kurds they kind of were.

"Ignoring the thousands of people who were killed in the most brutal of methods for no other reason than their race, everything was okay."

Same logic could be used for Nazi Germany. Do you also think the bombing of Dresden was wrong?

Dresden had limited military value but it did have manufacturing capability. I don't think that's why it was really bombed, though.

What is the relevance of this to the CIA?

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20-12-2014, 11:30 AM
RE: The Senates torture report
(20-12-2014 10:04 AM)BnW Wrote:  
(19-12-2014 11:35 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  "Ignoring the thousands of people who were killed in the most brutal of methods for no other reason than their race, everything was okay."

Same logic could be used for Nazi Germany. Do you also think the bombing of Dresden was wrong?

Dresden had limited military value but it did have manufacturing capability. I don't think that's why it was really bombed, though.

What is the relevance of this to the CIA?

Near as I can tell, it started with pointing out the hypocrisy of the War on Terror. Res goes 'yabut Saddam', Rev goes 'yabut Kurds', I go 'it's the hypocrisy stupid'. Then Res goes semi-Godwin hoping to make his point but instead digging himself further into his ditch. Once again we're all (not) amazed at the staggering (lack of) worldliness of one still in high school, still living with his parents, teenage Canadian.

Or TL;DR
-Because Res cannot comprehend irony. Undecided

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20-12-2014, 12:29 PM
RE: The Senates torture report
Right. Got it.

None of this is relevant. That Isis is murdering prisoners by cutting off their heads is not relevant. 9/11 and the crimes of bin Ladin are not relevant. Or, maybe a better way of putting it is they are not justifications.

The United States of America is a nation that operates under the law. Or, its not. Based on these accusations, we are not. The CIA committed acts that violated US law and international law. They are not really even denying they did these things. And, in the past 24 hours have come reports that they may have performed medical experiments on prisoners.

If you want to find a relevant historical precedent for what has happened here, the proper one is the Nuremberg Trials. That was when the US tried Nazis for many of the things that the CIA now stands accused of. And, we found a bunch of those people guilty and hung them for their crimes. History should be repeating itself.

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20-12-2014, 02:05 PM
RE: The Senates torture report
Dresden was as legitimate a military target (due to manufacturing and transshipment) as anything else hit by strategic bombing throughout the war.

Whether strategic bombing was worth it depends on how one decides to weigh the lives involved.

(20-12-2014 07:29 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  I knew you two were assholes, but I never would have guessed that you were sympathetic to nazism.

7/10 would troll again.

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20-12-2014, 02:16 PM
RE: The Senates torture report
Presidents, Individuals, lawmakers and branchs of government have all lied on many different occasions to keep this hidden and operating for over a decade.

Its not for your safety nor your defense. It is for power.

Thats the worst part.

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20-12-2014, 03:37 PM
RE: The Senates torture report
(20-12-2014 02:05 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Dresden was as legitimate a military target (due to manufacturing and transshipment) as anything else hit by strategic bombing throughout the war.

Whether strategic bombing was worth it depends on how one decides to weigh the lives involved.

Dresden could be an interesting discussion all on its own. While the troops, planes and factories were all legitimate targets, they bombed far more than that. Bombings of that time were far from accurate, but there is a case to be made that the allies were interested in doing more at Dresden than just hitting military targets.

Also, the comment about supporting Nazism because you question the bombing of Dresden is almost hilarious. I say almost because that same perverse illogic is being utilized to try to clamp down on any discussion on the report. Questioning what happened is equated by some as siding with the terrorists, a completely ridiculous assertion.

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20-12-2014, 07:06 PM
RE: The Senates torture report
(20-12-2014 03:37 PM)BnW Wrote:  
(20-12-2014 02:05 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Dresden was as legitimate a military target (due to manufacturing and transshipment) as anything else hit by strategic bombing throughout the war.

Whether strategic bombing was worth it depends on how one decides to weigh the lives involved.

Dresden could be an interesting discussion all on its own. While the troops, planes and factories were all legitimate targets, they bombed far more than that. Bombings of that time were far from accurate, but there is a case to be made that the allies were interested in doing more at Dresden than just hitting military targets.

Also, the comment about supporting Nazism because you question the bombing of Dresden is almost hilarious. I say almost because that same perverse illogic is being utilized to try to clamp down on any discussion on the report. Questioning what happened is equated by some as siding with the terrorists, a completely ridiculous assertion.

I'm not saying that those criticizing the CIA are siding with the terrorists, I'm saying that denying the righteous of the bombing of Dresden is something a nazi-sympathizer would do. I'm also pointing out that Saddam would probably have killed a lot more people intentionally then the Americans did with collateral damage.

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