The Sky is Falling
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
03-07-2014, 07:34 AM
RE: The Sky is Falling
(02-07-2014 08:45 AM)avalon Wrote:  
Quote: This decision forces a family's religious beliefs on its women employees, and that is just wrong.

You are sadly misinformed.
There were two issues in this case:
1. Does an individual give up his/her rights when they incorporate? The court said, "No". (Note: I wondered if Hobby Lobby was just a secular corp. run by a religious dude, so I researched the company. By their business practices and donation policies it seems they are not. If any company can claim to be 'religious', this one qualifies. I doubt that a secular-acting corporation that just happens to be owned by a religious person would have a valid case.)

If you have a logical argument why the court was wrong in this case, please state it.


2. The court weighed the burdens on each party. HL was burdened with violating their religious rights, the Government was burdened with providing for the common good some other way. The Gov. has a right to burden the public for the common good (collecting taxes, for example).
Since there was no way for HL to comply without giving up their rights, and since the Government had already made accommodation for religious organizations (an executive order instructing insurance companies to pay for contraceptives when providing coverage to religious organizations); the court felt that the lesser burden was for the government to expand that executive order. That is, since a constitutional right could be upheld with only a minor burden on the government, the government must accommodate.

If you have any logical argument why you think the government expanding a single executive order (to cover companies with religious exemptions) is a greater burden than a company being asked to give up a constitutional right, then please state it.

I also have a question for you: Why hasn't Obama expanded his executive order concerning religious organizations to include HL (and every other comany)? A few pen strokes and the insurance company for Hobby Lobby would be providing all 20 contraceptives.

Hobby Lobby, nor any other company, has religious rights. And even if one believes that corporations are 'people' and do have rights,
no one has the right to impose their religious beliefs on others, even their employees.

It is not a question of HL's rights being violated, it is a clear case of their rights superseding others' rights.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Chas's post
03-07-2014, 08:02 AM
RE: The Sky is Falling
(03-07-2014 07:14 AM)avalon Wrote:  Last time I checked the purpose of the Supreme Court was to decide cases based on constitutional grounds; not to wade into the science vs. religion debate.

You must make your case before the court can make a decision. Here's a fact for you: their case was built on fiction. Now show me where the constitution protects the 'rights' of businesses. You can't. Show me where myth can be used as a foundation for business 'rights'. You can't. A business and an individual are now even more interchangeable, constitutionally.

I noticed you didn't answer my question. Do you prefer cases supported by fact or fiction? Fact: their case was supported by mythological fiction.

(03-07-2014 07:14 AM)avalon Wrote:  Like you, I prefer the logic of science over the uninformed, emotion-based reactions of religion. That's why I entered this conversation. I find it troubling when thinking atheists abandon logic and reason and start using the same faulty reasoning I hear from fundies without getting their facts straight.

I find it troubling when people cite the constitution without understanding it. You completely miss the point of a corporation and a person being separate entities; apparently they are interchangeable in your mind. Perhaps Hobby Lobby should also be given the right to vote. After all, 'it' apparently has feelings and beliefs.

(03-07-2014 07:14 AM)avalon Wrote:  Here's my easy-to-predict outcome of the case:
Obama will play politics with it until it's no longer newsworthy. Then he'll expand the E.O. to cover companies like HL. The insurance companies will pick up the costs of the contraceptives. So, the employees of those companies will have the same access as everyone else.
I came to this conclusion after learning about the law, and learning about the executive order, and learning about how the case was decided.

Almost all of your comments deal with the outcome. You are simply not interested in the root issue. You have not mentioned the first amendment. You have not cited where the constitution states a corporate entity is a 'person' with constitutional rights. You have not addressed the consequences of allowing myth to affect government policy. I can only assume you don't know while happily trudging forward shouting "It all worked out!"

You continue to glaze over the court's decision and instead concern yourself with the minutia of how the issue will be handled by insurance companies, government, and employees. Kinda like how a theist get's excited about how church was fun on Sunday without questioning whether or not the belief system itself might be flawed. I find it ironic that you mention atheists acting like theists while showing complete ignorance towards the root issue.

The other comments you quoted are not mine.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like guitar_nut's post
03-07-2014, 08:19 AM
RE: The Sky is Falling
"You have not cited where the constitution states a corporate entity is a 'person' with constitutional rights."

I think this bothers me a lot. Corporations are formed to protect individuals from certain things: lawsuits, taxes, liability. If anyone tried to sue Mr. And Mrs. HL for lack of birth control, they would certainly hide behind the corporation and claim, "You can't sue us, you have to sue the corporation." And yet it's Mr. and Mrs. HL making the claim that their religious rights are damaged. The line is drawn and they are permitted to decide which side of the line they will stand on under different circumstances.

We have enough youth. How about looking for the Fountain of Smart?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Thinkerbelle's post
03-07-2014, 09:43 AM
RE: The Sky is Falling
(03-07-2014 08:19 AM)Thinkerbelle Wrote:  "You have not cited where the constitution states a corporate entity is a 'person' with constitutional rights."

I think this bothers me a lot. Corporations are formed to protect individuals from certain things: lawsuits, taxes, liability. If anyone tried to sue Mr. And Mrs. HL for lack of birth control, they would certainly hide behind the corporation and claim, "You can't sue us, you have to sue the corporation." And yet it's Mr. and Mrs. HL making the claim that their religious rights are damaged. The line is drawn and they are permitted to decide which side of the line they will stand on under different circumstances.

Congratulations everyone!
What started out as a thread using the same faulty arguments and tactics of fundamentalists (slippery slope, misinformation, misrepresentation, etc...) has evolved into a discussion worthy of thinking atheists; one which addresses the facts, brings up valid questions (what should be the 'rights' and protections for businesses?), and most importantly, uses logic and reason.
My job is done here.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-07-2014, 09:51 AM
RE: The Sky is Falling
(03-07-2014 09:43 AM)avalon Wrote:  
(03-07-2014 08:19 AM)Thinkerbelle Wrote:  "You have not cited where the constitution states a corporate entity is a 'person' with constitutional rights."

I think this bothers me a lot. Corporations are formed to protect individuals from certain things: lawsuits, taxes, liability. If anyone tried to sue Mr. And Mrs. HL for lack of birth control, they would certainly hide behind the corporation and claim, "You can't sue us, you have to sue the corporation." And yet it's Mr. and Mrs. HL making the claim that their religious rights are damaged. The line is drawn and they are permitted to decide which side of the line they will stand on under different circumstances.

Congratulations everyone!
What started out as a thread using the same faulty arguments and tactics of fundamentalists (slippery slope, misinformation, misrepresentation, etc...) has evolved into a discussion worthy of thinking atheists; one which addresses the facts, brings up valid questions (what should be the 'rights' and protections for businesses?), and most importantly, uses logic and reason.
My job is done here.

I thought we already had a talk about the condescending crap.
Thanks fer learnin' me 'bout stuff! Hobo
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes pablo's post
03-07-2014, 09:58 AM
RE: The Sky is Falling
(03-07-2014 09:43 AM)avalon Wrote:  Congratulations everyone!
What started out as a thread using the same faulty arguments and tactics of fundamentalists (slippery slope, misinformation, misrepresentation, etc...) has evolved into a discussion worthy of thinking atheists; one which addresses the facts, brings up valid questions (what should be the 'rights' and protections for businesses?), and most importantly, uses logic and reason.
My job is done here.

Your "job" was to support your argument by citing where in the constitution (after all, the Supreme Court deals with constitutional issues) a business is afforded the same rights as an individual. Despite numerous efforts to keep you on topic, you continued to delve into how employees and insurance agencies aren't really harmed by the court's decision.

Looks like you called in sick today. Drinking Beverage

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like guitar_nut's post
03-07-2014, 10:06 AM
RE: The Sky is Falling
(03-07-2014 09:58 AM)guitar_nut Wrote:  
(03-07-2014 09:43 AM)avalon Wrote:  Congratulations everyone!
What started out as a thread using the same faulty arguments and tactics of fundamentalists (slippery slope, misinformation, misrepresentation, etc...) has evolved into a discussion worthy of thinking atheists; one which addresses the facts, brings up valid questions (what should be the 'rights' and protections for businesses?), and most importantly, uses logic and reason.
My job is done here.

Your "job" was to support your argument by citing where in the constitution (after all, the Supreme Court deals with constitutional issues) a business is afforded the same rights as an individual. Despite numerous efforts to keep you on topic, you continued to delve into how employees and insurance agencies aren't really harmed by the court's decision.

Looks like you called in sick today. Drinking Beverage

I'm not sure how you got that impression. Let me quote my first post (from page 4):

Quote:Perhaps the bigger problem is 'thinking' atheists who supposedly quit religion for logical, rational reasons; but in reality have made politics their new religion. They've simply transferred their blind faith, irrational, knee-jerk emotional reactions to a new authority: the Party.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-07-2014, 10:43 AM
RE: The Sky is Falling
(03-07-2014 10:06 AM)avalon Wrote:  I'm not sure how you got that impression.

Let me quote the first post of the thread, the actual topic:

Quote:Supreme Court sides with Christian-owned companies that don't want to pay for some types of contraceptives for workers.

Here's my first response to this thread:

Quote:I think the whole birth-control topic has drawn a lot of attention away from what I feel is the core issue: A corporation can now receive special exemption based on the religious beliefs of its upper management.

You have consistently stated that the corporation Hobby Lobby has rights. The corporation. Not the owners. They are, legally and constitutionally, not the same thing. Your posts (emphasis mine):

Quote:#46 - Because the expanded mandate for insurance companies means the employees get the contraceptives if they want them and HL retains it's rights.
#56 - Likewise, Hobby Lobby will have a clear conscience if the insurance company buys the contraceptives for their employees.
#59 But Hobby Lobby cannot limit what the insurance company offers it's employees. It just has the right to not buy the 4 drugs them self.
#66 Buying insurance that provides these contraceptives is providing them indirectly against their conscience

You then falsely equivocate individual rights with corporate 'rights,' as if your religion is somehow allowed to carry over to business law:

Quote:#63 - I think it's a good thing that individuals don't forfeit their rights just because they start a business.

You then claim the constitution supports special laws for religious organizations (not individuals... organizations):

Quote:#60 - Why does the government need to bend over and write special laws for these religious organizations in the first place?
Uh, the constitution?

You correctly state that the Supreme Court deals in constitutional issues, while ignoring the grounds for the issue itself as if it's somehow a separate and irrelevant topic whos merit shouldn't hold weight in the case:

Quote:#79 - Last time I checked the purpose of the Supreme Court was to decide cases based on constitutional grounds; not to wade into the science vs. religion debate.

I then ask you to support your assertions:
Quote:#62 The first amendment prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion. Please cite the passage of the constitution supports your argument.
#67 What constitutional rights do business have?

You were unable to. You then arrogantly claim that you've somehow done your 'job'. WTF does that mean? You avoid the core issue, can't backup your claims with any sort of constitutional reference and refuse, or are unable, to distinguish the very clear difference between an individual, who's rights are protected by the constitution, and a business, which operates based on parameters set forth by secular law. BUSINESSES MUST OPERATE ACCORDING TO LAW, REGARDLESS OF THE OWNER'S PERSONAL BELIEFS.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 7 users Like guitar_nut's post
03-07-2014, 11:38 AM
RE: The Sky is Falling
I'm disappointed by the ruling.


I do have some questions -

Is Hobby Lobby a religious organization? Also, does the ACA offer supplementary coverage for things not covered by employer insurance?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-07-2014, 12:20 PM
RE: The Sky is Falling
(03-07-2014 06:29 AM)Thinkerbelle Wrote:  <sigh>

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014...gbt-peopl/
Is anyone else besides me not shocked?
Disgusted, but not shocked. Dodgy

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: