The Terrifying Results of Muslim Immigration in the UK
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11-12-2015, 01:47 AM
RE: The Terrifying Results of Muslim Immigration in the UK
(10-12-2015 08:24 AM)izel Wrote:  
(10-12-2015 07:16 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  There are other assholes that harass the downtrodden that aren't religious. They are just bullies, and there are legal recourses to deal with people like this. Including pulling a gun if you have a carry permit and are physically threatened. As bemore mentioned, this lunatic's antics have landed him in jail. The same thing would happen to bemore if he went around trying to force women to wear bikinis in his "Ladies Only" zone. Laughat

Yea but, here is the thing Erx, I don't fear their numbers, I fear their ideology. It only took 2 people to kill 130 in Ankara 3 months ago. You get what I'm saying? And this is the kind of ideology that leads to mass chaos by very small number of crazies.

Well, there's a natural tendency to build a bigger wall and keep the bad people out. I just... For me the point of civilisation is that it's *better*. You can't say "free speech" and qualify it with "only for people we like". Fairness is something hard to achieve and very precious. I would rather not see society become more authoritarian.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-12-2015, 03:51 AM
RE: The Terrifying Results of Muslim Immigration in the UK
(11-12-2015 01:47 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(10-12-2015 08:24 AM)izel Wrote:  Yea but, here is the thing Erx, I don't fear their numbers, I fear their ideology. It only took 2 people to kill 130 in Ankara 3 months ago. You get what I'm saying? And this is the kind of ideology that leads to mass chaos by very small number of crazies.

Well, there's a natural tendency to build a bigger wall and keep the bad people out. I just... For me the point of civilisation is that it's *better*. You can't say "free speech" and qualify it with "only for people we like". Fairness is something hard to achieve and very precious. I would rather not see society become more authoritarian.

Yes free speech most definitely. But what I am noticing is that Islam is getting special dispensations. If you speak against it you are very likely to be shouted down as a racist and a bigot, particularly by the left who seem incapable of criticizing it. Being silenced with accusations of racism and bigotry in a supposed free country is not freedom of speech.

As Douglas Murray says, the day the hate preachers and sexist, homophobic Imams are treated the same as the likes of Nick Griffin (ex-leader of the BNP, British National Party) and allowed to speak but debated and ridiculed then we will be making some headway. But for the most part this is not happening and they are treated with far more respect than they have earned because lets face it those that do speak against them or ridicule them tend to lose their lives or have to run to save it, Hirshi Ali and Theo van Gogh spring to mind. So we caved to the bullies and I am shocked at how quickly we caved.

There are Sharia Courts up and running in areas of Britain. Courts which believe a woman holds half the value of a man. This, in a country which fought for equal rights. There's the cultural relativism argument which the left love to throw out and claim well it's within their own communities that's how they do things. True but those communities are ignoring the rule of law, blatantly and while they may be small-ish now they are growing and they are growing fast due to higher birth rates than more established populations and the huge increase in immigration.

Assimilation to a new land and culture takes time but with immigration now at a point where the numbers are so high there is no need for intergration any longer and they continue to live as they did. I do not only see this in muslim areas but also in predominately Romanian areas. So the model of multiculturalism of the past is gone, at least in Europe and in the case of many many muslims they see themselves a muslims first and foremost and the country they live in as merely a place they live in they have no loyalty or concern for it. there are now more British Muslims leaving to train and fight with ISIS than join Britain's military.

This is not something to ignore. If you look at history human knowledge and advancement has been wiped out more than once through war and religion. Books get burned and cultures obliterated. We should not take it for granted that this will not happen again and we should be very precious about our way of life and the strides we have made to create a world that is tolerant and free and not allow any particular ideology to use that tolerance against us.

Reining in Christianity and will have been a pointless exercise if we just allow Islam to ride roughshod over us.

"The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species." - Christopher Hitchens

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11-12-2015, 04:06 AM
RE: The Terrifying Results of Muslim Immigration in the UK
Um. I definitely think that law should be secular and based on something other than religion. I agree that if fundamentalist Islamists have free speech to shout their hate, then others should have free speech to answer them. Racism and bigotry do exist unfortunately, even if they're badly defined, which makes a very convenient accusation for any religious scumbag to hide behind.

I think universal human rights, actually put into practice, and secular government institutions is the only sane way to run a society. But it's hard to do that, because humans in themselves are *all about* interest groups. So it's somewhat of a miracle that such a type of government can exist even as an ideal.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-12-2015, 04:13 AM
RE: The Terrifying Results of Muslim Immigration in the UK
Incidentally I did some googling around the Sharia Courts in the UK claim. It's... not nearly the case that they are in any way *actual* courts. Here are two links which come up first in the google search:
https://fullfact.org/law/uk_sharia_courts-39429
http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/fact...w-uk/18486

I haven't done anything other than skim them, but what I have read convinces me that this is not anything particularly worrying, especially for non-Muslims.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-12-2015, 05:01 AM
RE: The Terrifying Results of Muslim Immigration in the UK
(11-12-2015 04:13 AM)morondog Wrote:  Incidentally I did some googling around the Sharia Courts in the UK claim. It's... not nearly the case that they are in any way *actual* courts. Here are two links which come up first in the google search:
https://fullfact.org/law/uk_sharia_courts-39429
http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/fact...w-uk/18486

I haven't done anything other than skim them, but what I have read convinces me that this is not anything particularly worrying, especially for non-Muslims.

The point isn't whether they are up and running in any huge way and whether they affect non muslims. The point is that they are up and running in Europe at all. When I talk about equality for women I include muslim women and do not accept that their experience should be any less than mine just because they were born into a particular ideology. The women who go to the sharia councils to escape unhappy and abusive marriages are told going to the police and reporting domestic violence against them is the very last resort!

They treat their women not as equals but as inferior. We have equality laws here and they are flouting them and because of this women living in Britain to day are suffering.

The BBC investigated this:




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11-12-2015, 05:16 AM
RE: The Terrifying Results of Muslim Immigration in the UK
There are also Jewish courts which run separate from the English court system, and have done so for centuries. Mentioned in the articles I linked. Sorry can't watch video at the moment.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-12-2015, 05:24 AM
RE: The Terrifying Results of Muslim Immigration in the UK
And I would say the same regarding equality in those cases to. Although I would also note that it is immigration from Muslim countries that is on the increase and not Jewish so it will be Sharia on the increase way more than Beth Dins.

Addressing a point of concern within one group of people by saying it occurs in others is cause for more concern and not a reason to let it slide.

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11-12-2015, 06:14 AM
RE: The Terrifying Results of Muslim Immigration in the UK
(11-12-2015 05:24 AM)Eva Wrote:  And I would say the same regarding equality in those cases to. Although I would also note that it is immigration from Muslim countries that is on the increase and not Jewish so it will be Sharia on the increase way more than Beth Dins.

Addressing a point of concern within one group of people by saying it occurs in others is cause for more concern and not a reason to let it slide.

Rolleyes The point is the Jewish and Islamic courts have no force of law. It's the same as going to a fortune teller in terms of actual legalities. If you choose to go to a fortune teller to resolve your marriage disputes that's your right.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-12-2015, 07:04 AM
RE: The Terrifying Results of Muslim Immigration in the UK
(11-12-2015 06:14 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(11-12-2015 05:24 AM)Eva Wrote:  And I would say the same regarding equality in those cases to. Although I would also note that it is immigration from Muslim countries that is on the increase and not Jewish so it will be Sharia on the increase way more than Beth Dins.

Addressing a point of concern within one group of people by saying it occurs in others is cause for more concern and not a reason to let it slide.

Rolleyes The point is the Jewish and Islamic courts have no force of law. It's the same as going to a fortune teller in terms of actual legalities. If you choose to go to a fortune teller to resolve your marriage disputes that's your right.

The fortune teller analogy isn't quite doing it for me. A fortune teller cannot grant you a divorce within yours or anybody else's community and is certainly not viewed as a judge or jury. The fact that they are called sharia Courts is a telling sign, they have set up their own legal system within the wider framework of democracy and is at odds with it. This should not be allowed to happen the rule of law should prevail and anything undermining it should be closed down. Laws come about through the consensus of the citizens via a democratic voting system not because some imam sets up a court in a terraced house in a city suburb. A system that may well have it's flaws but it has brought us equality, including women's rights and gays right to marry. A system far superior to sharia which if allowed will bring, among other things, veiled women and stoning of adulterers.

Different courts, neighborhoods and the rest ultimately lead to social segregation and inequality. Not to mention the collapse of social cohesion and identity. A country without a strong identity and foundation will inevitably collapse as its citizens have nothing to fight for, feel loyal towards or protective of other than their own private little worlds.

As I said in my earlier post Europe's multicultural success of the past is now eroding under the weight of the Middle East crisis and this is just one symptom of it. But we keep on letting the individual symptoms slide. Democracy did not come easily but if taken for granted it will be lost in a heartbeat.

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11-12-2015, 07:54 AM
RE: The Terrifying Results of Muslim Immigration in the UK
(11-12-2015 07:04 AM)Eva Wrote:  The fortune teller analogy isn't quite doing it for me. A fortune teller cannot grant you a divorce within yours or anybody else's community and is certainly not viewed as a judge or jury.
Neither can the Sharia "courts". At most they can rule on religious matters - such as the recognition of a marriage as "Holy under Islam" or whatever they use - but their rulings have no force of actual law.

Quote:The fact that they are called sharia Courts is a telling sign, they have set up their own legal system within the wider framework of democracy and is at odds with it. This should not be allowed to happen the rule of law should prevail and anything undermining it should be closed down. Laws come about through the consensus of the citizens via a democratic voting system not because some imam sets up a court in a terraced house in a city suburb. A system that may well have it's flaws but it has brought us equality, including women's rights and gays right to marry. A system far superior to sharia which if allowed will bring, among other things, veiled women and stoning of adulterers.
You're right to oppose such things. As do I, but those who wish for it cannot bring such a thing to pass *unless* the people of the UK as a whole vote for it, in which case, y'know, democracy.

Quote:Different courts, neighborhoods and the rest ultimately lead to social segregation and inequality. Not to mention the collapse of social cohesion and identity. A country without a strong identity and foundation will inevitably collapse as its citizens have nothing to fight for, feel loyal towards or protective of other than their own private little worlds.

As I said in my earlier post Europe's multicultural success of the past is now eroding under the weight of the Middle East crisis and this is just one symptom of it. But we keep on letting the individual symptoms slide. Democracy did not come easily but if taken for granted it will be lost in a heartbeat.
I agree with you that democracy is a fragile thing. I disagree as to the method by which it may be protected. Banning people from religious practices like going to the Imam for "legal" advice and what have you is only going to convince them that this whole Western law thing is designed to fuck with them.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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