The Theist Dilemma
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12-02-2014, 09:15 PM
The Theist Dilemma
A friend of yours lives alone and invites you over to have a serious discussion.
You discover your friend is suicidal and has a revolver on his bedside table with one bullet in it.

You both discuss the gun and you find out that he purchased it at a gun show today, but forgot to buy bullets. When he arrived home, he discovered the gun had a single bullet in it.
That was when he called you.

He says to you "That single bullet seems to be a sign from god that my death is all part of his plan"
He then leaves the room to check on some food cooking in the oven.

While he is gone, do you take the bullet from the gun ?

Whichever choice you make, how did you arrive at the decision you made ?

If you say that you prayed to god to give you the answer, then I'm going to tell you that god replies with "Leave the bullet in the gun".

Again, I'll ask. Do you take the bullet from the gun ?

If you take the bullet from the gun, you discover the next day that a robber had broken into your friends house and killed him.

If you leave the bullet in the gun, you discover the next day that your friend committed suicide by shooting himself with the gun.

How do you decide what is the morally right thing to do ?
Is it morally right to leave a bullet in a gun with a person who is suicidal ?
Is it morally right to remove a bullet from a gun when it could be that person's only means of self defense if there should be a robbery ?

When you convince yourself that any answer to a question is the right answer if it comes from the ultimate source of good, then you have become a puppet who can be convinced to commit crimes and ignore situations where people need help.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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12-02-2014, 09:22 PM
RE: The Theist Dilemma
If I were faced with that situation... I'd fuckin' shoot myself.

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12-02-2014, 09:23 PM
RE: The Theist Dilemma
(12-02-2014 09:15 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  While he is gone, do you take the bullet from the gun ?
yes.

(12-02-2014 09:15 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Whichever choice you make, how did you arrive at the decision you made ?
To save life is right thing to do.

(12-02-2014 09:15 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  If you say that you prayed to god to give you the answer, then I'm going to tell you that god replies with "Leave the bullet in the gun".
It doesn't matter what YOU say.


(12-02-2014 09:15 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  If you take the bullet from the gun, you discover the next day that a robber had broken into your friends house and killed him.
I am not accountable for his/her death. I would feel guilty if I knew that I could do something and didn't do it. But I can not blame myself for what I could not do. I could not know that robber will come next day and kill my friend.

English is not my native language.
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12-02-2014, 09:33 PM
RE: The Theist Dilemma
It's obvious, you'd take the bullet.
If you know he's suicidal and he killed himself then you'd be a shitty person for not doing anything to stop him.
You don't know if someone is gonna break in and kill him, that's unforeseeable and if you propose that you do know then it makes the whole situation unrealistic and stupid because if you did know there are many options to you beside leave the bullet.

You might feel shitty if you took the bullet and he was killed but you'd feel worst if you didn't take the bullet and he killed himself.

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12-02-2014, 09:33 PM
RE: The Theist Dilemma
Neither.
I'd take the gun and stay over night with the person, of course separating the ammo from the gun.

I may or may not have been in this situation before...

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12-02-2014, 10:30 PM
RE: The Theist Dilemma
Like any moral dilemma, this one put you in a situation of lack of information and throws at you the decision.
The only way to honestly answer this one is to take the bullet away. The rest of the consequences are impossible to predict and therefore out of our responsibility.
If we were to know every piece of information, then the best solution is to get away from the house, and maybe wait outside to the robber to come and then call the police. And later deal with the psychological problems of our friend.

Context is the ultimate moral arbiter extraordinaire

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12-02-2014, 11:50 PM (This post was last modified: 13-02-2014 09:28 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: The Theist Dilemma
(12-02-2014 10:30 PM)nach_in Wrote:  Like any moral dilemma, this one put you in a situation of lack of information and throws at you the decision.
The only way to honestly answer this one is to take the bullet away. The rest of the consequences are impossible to predict and therefore out of our responsibility.
If we were to know every piece of information, then the best solution is to get away from the house, and maybe wait outside to the robber to come and then call the police. And later deal with the psychological problems of our friend.

Context is the ultimate moral arbiter extraordinaire

Agreed, as our moral landscape extends only as far as our knowledge. The robber is an externality that could not be known at the time of the decision, the friend's delusion and seemingly suicidal leanings are known at that time. The better, the more moral thing to do, would be to do what you can to protect your friend from the most obvious danger known at that time; himself.

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13-02-2014, 12:04 AM
RE: The Theist Dilemma
I would immediately be suspicious of my friend in such a situation. If he is so intent on suicide, why is he cooking a meal, and why has he forgotten to purchase ammunition? When one is intent upon death, food is not so helpful as ammunition. He may very well believe that death is god's will, but he doesn't seem to be fully committed to suicide. He is obviously seriously mentally unstable.

I would not remove the bullet from the pistol. It is not my responsibility to make such an important choice on behalf of my friend. His life is his own, to dispose of or live out as he chooses.

Even if I imagine myself, for a moment, to be his superior in good sense and moral judgement, enough to take the bullet from his gun, is he now stripped of means to end his life? Could he leap from a bridge, or cut his own wrists or throat? Could he overdose on pills or throw himself into a busy intersection? How much power over my friend's decisions do I really hold? It appears that the god who seems bent on his demise has assisted him in obedience by means of granting freedom of choice. If this supposed deity does not see fit to curtail his freedom for his own benefit, how can I presume to do so?

I cannot help but ask myself in such a situation, what right do I hold to restrain a person in this life, when he so vehemently desires its ending? Am I to make private judgement upon his decision, without knowing if it is well thought out, or reasoned at all? Some may say that contemplating suicide is a sign of an unstable mind. To that I say that this is an unstable world, and there are worse things than mere death. Which of us would not end our own misery rather than live through agony at all hours of the day? If we knew we were destined for the grotesque tortures of the famous Inquisition, followed by death, with utterly no possible means of escape, would we not rather hang ourselves from the bars of a cell, than live to experience it? Who am I to judge the life of another, when I do not know what horrors await him should he return home, rather than ending his life. Perhaps someone this very moment is experiencing the ravaging pain of cancer, knowing full well the reality of impending destruction. What am I to say to such a person regarding his desire for the agony to cease? "No no. You are not sound of mind. Stay here and suffer a while longer." The whole affair be damned. I will do no such thing. The bullet can remain in the pistol until it is put to one use or another.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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13-02-2014, 12:18 AM
RE: The Theist Dilemma
Well, I'm not a theist, but I'll answer anyway.

(12-02-2014 09:15 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  While he is gone, do you take the bullet from the gun ?

Yes, but also, I take the gun, and I sit there all night with my friend who is suicidal. Since I'm there with the gun and bullet when the thief shows up, I shoot him. Plus anyway, I had my own concealed carry the whole time. Say hello to my little friend mutha fucka! This display of - some might say excessive and needless -violence then cures my friend of suicidal thoughts. Plus my friend is hot and female, so we start having sex....

...sorry, I seem to have mistaken my fantasies for reality again. What was the question again?

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13-02-2014, 12:37 AM
RE: The Theist Dilemma
(12-02-2014 09:15 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  If you say that you prayed to god to give you the answer, then I'm going to tell you that god replies with "Leave the bullet in the gun".
(12-02-2014 09:23 PM)Alla Wrote:  It doesn't matter what YOU say.

Alla here, serves as yet another example of one of the many annoyances of discussing anything with a Theist, the inability to understand or tolerate the hypothetical. It is impossible to miss the irony of her outrage at what she would deem to be speaking for god, when one realizes that the source of the hypothetical answer to prayer is god himself.

(12-02-2014 09:15 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  If you say that you prayed to god to give you the answer, then I'm going to tell you that god replies with "Leave the bullet in the gun".

She is, yet again, like a child having a tantrum while being too ignorant to notice that she has already got her way. All of this is presented in her usual tedious style, with randomly capitalized words to emphasize the most meaningless portions of its squalid drivel.

It is fortunate that she is here to remind us all of our arrogance for presuming the mind of god, otherwise we might not care to notice when she promptly presumes his mind, his plan, and all of our roles within it. Never mind our rigid adherence to logic, which requires us to begin with bullshit the religious have provided on the nature of god. Our reasonable desire for celestial consistency is simply too much for her to bear. She might approve better if we all plunged our hands deep into our asses to locate anything we might wish to use as god's revelation to us. At the very least, the quality of our claims would match her own, in origin, and in practice.

It is always a pleasure to witness the legendary humility and meekness of Christians. Only the truly humble seem able to cast aside the motivations and ideas of others, with the ridiculous claim that they, and only they, have rights to such ideas. Their word goes, and the words of others are meaningless. In case of emergency, should this charade be questioned, we hear, "It is not I who makes all that I say true, but my imaginary friend here, who you cannot see, who is bent upon your servitude to him, or destruction and torture. You had best do as he says, by doing what I say."

It is with ease, and it is a pleasure, that I point out the obvious to Alla. It doesn't matter what you say. It matters how you back it up. You have proven yourself quite unable in that regard.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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