The Theist Dilemma
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13-02-2014, 10:07 AM
RE: The Theist Dilemma
(13-02-2014 09:21 AM)Alla Wrote:  ...
I already know that moral and RIGHT thing to do is to save someone's life.
...

I have been in this situation, more than once (although no guns were involved).

The moral thing to do, I decided, was not to contravene their free-will.

I asked them... "Do you really want to die? If so, I'll walk away right now and mention it to no one. Or do you want me to stop you?"

On each occasion, they did not want to die.

I'm pretty sure, but not 100% confident, that I would have walked away if that was what they had chosen.

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13-02-2014, 10:22 AM
RE: The Theist Dilemma
(13-02-2014 12:04 AM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  
I would immediately be suspicious of my friend in such a situation. If he is so intent on suicide, why is he cooking a meal, and why has he forgotten to purchase ammunition? When one is intent upon death, food is not so helpful as ammunition. He may very well believe that death is god's will, but he doesn't seem to be fully committed to suicide. He is obviously seriously mentally unstable.

I would not remove the bullet from the pistol. It is not my responsibility to make such an important choice on behalf of my friend. His life is his own, to dispose of or live out as he chooses.

Even if I imagine myself, for a moment, to be his superior in good sense and moral judgement, enough to take the bullet from his gun, is he now stripped of means to end his life? Could he leap from a bridge, or cut his own wrists or throat? Could he overdose on pills or throw himself into a busy intersection? How much power over my friend's decisions do I really hold? It appears that the god who seems bent on his demise has assisted him in obedience by means of granting freedom of choice. If this supposed deity does not see fit to curtail his freedom for his own benefit, how can I presume to do so?

I cannot help but ask myself in such a situation, what right do I hold to restrain a person in this life, when he so vehemently desires its ending? Am I to make private judgement upon his decision, without knowing if it is well thought out, or reasoned at all? Some may say that contemplating suicide is a sign of an unstable mind. To that I say that this is an unstable world, and there are worse things than mere death. Which of us would not end our own misery rather than live through agony at all hours of the day? If we knew we were destined for the grotesque tortures of the famous Inquisition, followed by death, with utterly no possible means of escape, would we not rather hang ourselves from the bars of a cell, than live to experience it? Who am I to judge the life of another, when I do not know what horrors await him should he return home, rather than ending his life. Perhaps someone this very moment is experiencing the ravaging pain of cancer, knowing full well the reality of impending destruction. What am I to say to such a person regarding his desire for the agony to cease? "No no. You are not sound of mind. Stay here and suffer a while longer." The whole affair be damned. I will do no such thing. The bullet can remain in the pistol until it is put to one use or another.
(Put your post in a spoiler cause it's long)

I'm going to have to disagree with you Dark. You're more leaning on the assumption that the OP is dealing with something outside of their control (your cancer situation). Yes I would agree there are times when death is better, though it should be a last resort. If it wasn't, I and I'm sure many other people on this forum wouldn't be here.
So many people commit suicide because their life sucks for one reason or another, not because it's the only way out. I don't judge those people, I knew a few of them myself, but do disagree with their choice. I've helped a few people not commit suicide, those people are (for the most part) better off. It's not a fairy tale ending of course, but life got better. In the end, life is all you have. Why waste it if there is a chance it could get better?
When it comes down to the final choice, of course you can't make someone not commit suicide, but should that really stop you from trying? Maybe just the fact that you showed you cared could save his/her life. In my experiences that is the most powerful tool. Not to sit there talk at them, but to stop and take a few minutes out of your day to listen to them and truly show you care.

Tl;dr version: If you stop and listen to the person, the words "I understand you." can save lives.

Here's a semi-related quote that came to mind while typing this:
Topic: This is from the documentary "Bowling for Columbine" (for those who don't know, it was a school shooting). This is a more extreme example, which is why I separated this from my main post.

Question: If you were to talk directly to the kids at Columbine or the people in that community, what would you say to them if they were here right now? [Michael Moore]

Answer: I wouldn't say a single word to them I would listen to what they have to say, and that's what no one did.[Marilyn Manson]

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13-02-2014, 10:25 AM
RE: The Theist Dilemma
(13-02-2014 09:44 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(12-02-2014 09:15 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  A friend of yours lives alone and invites you over to have a serious discussion.
You discover your friend is suicidal and has a revolver on his bedside table with one bullet in it.

You both discuss the gun and you find out that he purchased it at a gun show today, but forgot to buy bullets. When he arrived home, he discovered the gun had a single bullet in it.
That was when he called you.

He says to you "That single bullet seems to be a sign from god that my death is all part of his plan"

"Well, good luck with that. C-ya."

These 'moral dilemmas' are straight bullshit. Anyone who feels confident predicting their actions in a crisis situation is either highly trained or full of shit, with the vast majority falling under the latter category. Dodgy

Highly trained? Full of shit?
How about been through these kind of situations already?

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13-02-2014, 10:26 AM
RE: The Theist Dilemma
(13-02-2014 09:32 AM)alpha male Wrote:  
(13-02-2014 08:36 AM)guitar_nut Wrote:  I find it hilarious (and good) that both theists ignored this line:
If you say that you prayed to god to give you the answer, then I'm going to tell you that god replies with "Leave the bullet in the gun".

Not sure why you find that hilarious. Consider

I don't expect you to see the humor in it. Knowing what god would say in this hypothetical, prayer was quickly removed from the table: 'I don't need to pray.'

I personally will continue to find it hilarious. Carry on. Drinking Beverage

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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13-02-2014, 10:28 AM
RE: The Theist Dilemma
(13-02-2014 10:25 AM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  How about been through these kind of situations already?

How about it?

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13-02-2014, 10:40 AM
RE: The Theist Dilemma
(13-02-2014 10:07 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(13-02-2014 09:21 AM)Alla Wrote:  ...
I already know that moral and RIGHT thing to do is to save someone's life.
...

I have been in this situation, more than once (although no guns were involved).

The moral thing to do, I decided, was not to contravene their free-will.

I asked them... "Do you really want to die? If so, I'll walk away right now and mention it to no one. Or do you want me to stop you?"

On each occasion, they did not want to die.

I'm pretty sure, but not 100% confident, that I would have walked away if that was what they had chosen.
OK. I am not the one to judge you or to tell you what is moral or right thing to do. You should follow your conciseness.

English is not my native language.
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13-02-2014, 10:48 AM
RE: The Theist Dilemma
(13-02-2014 10:40 AM)Alla Wrote:  ...
OK. I am not the one to judge you or to tell you what is moral or right thing to do. You should follow your conciseness.

Oh, no, no... you have every right to judge and you can tell me whatever you like.

It is my right to ignore your advice.

I'll leave conciseness to Chas.

Drinking Beverage

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13-02-2014, 11:01 AM
RE: The Theist Dilemma
(12-02-2014 09:15 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  A friend of yours lives alone and invites you over to have a serious discussion.
You discover your friend is suicidal and has a revolver on his bedside table with one bullet in it.

You both discuss the gun and you find out that he purchased it at a gun show today, but forgot to buy bullets. When he arrived home, he discovered the gun had a single bullet in it.
That was when he called you.

He says to you "That single bullet seems to be a sign from god that my death is all part of his plan"
He then leaves the room to check on some food cooking in the oven.

While he is gone, do you take the bullet from the gun ?

Whichever choice you make, how did you arrive at the decision you made ?

If you say that you prayed to god to give you the answer, then I'm going to tell you that god replies with "Leave the bullet in the gun".

Again, I'll ask. Do you take the bullet from the gun ?

If you take the bullet from the gun, you discover the next day that a robber had broken into your friends house and killed him.

If you leave the bullet in the gun, you discover the next day that your friend committed suicide by shooting himself with the gun.

How do you decide what is the morally right thing to do ?
Is it morally right to leave a bullet in a gun with a person who is suicidal ?
Is it morally right to remove a bullet from a gun when it could be that person's only means of self defense if there should be a robbery ?

When you convince yourself that any answer to a question is the right answer if it comes from the ultimate source of good, then you have become a puppet who can be convinced to commit crimes and ignore situations where people need help.
I would kinapp him in his sleep and take his belongings and place them in my house, so the robber can't steal anything. Then, the next morning, I find him a girlfriend and we all do what we love the most. I destroy the gun.

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13-02-2014, 11:03 AM
RE: The Theist Dilemma
(13-02-2014 10:28 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(13-02-2014 10:25 AM)Im_Ryan Wrote:  How about been through these kind of situations already?

How about it?

You don't need to be "highly trained", you can still have experience in the matter. Most people do.

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13-02-2014, 11:40 AM
RE: The Theist Dilemma
(13-02-2014 10:26 AM)guitar_nut Wrote:  I don't expect you to see the humor in it. Knowing what god would say in this hypothetical,
You mean, knowing what an atheist pretends that god would say. Now I'm seeing some humor in your defense.
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