The Thinking Atheist is Not an Atheist
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01-10-2012, 08:23 AM (This post was last modified: 01-10-2012 08:28 AM by Vosur.)
RE: The Thinking Atheist is Not an Atheist
(30-09-2012 07:43 PM)titus221_panda Wrote:  The title was meant to grab everyone’s attention.
Firstly, I truly believe everyone who is claiming atheism IS an atheist. “The Thinking Atheist,” is included in the list.
My point is that The Thinking Atheist, and most atheists on the forums here, argue against god(s) and religion like they are angry theists.
Examples:
- Disproving the effectiveness, practicality, or function of prayer, does not disprove god(s). It can only prove that god(s) is/are either ignoring men, or just cruel.
- Disproving any “holy books,” cannot disprove any god(s). It can only disprove the god or gods associated with that holy book.
- Proving scientific claims cannot disprove god(s). Only proves that science is true, because any god(s) who can create, can create within the laws of nature.
- Proving theists are stupid does not disprove theism. Only proves that humans are usually stupid.
- Proving the corruption within religious systems does not disprove god(s). It can only prove that those systems are run by corrupt people.
The list goes on…
Also, The Thinking Atheist and many atheists here, use arguments that hold no philosophical or substantial meaning, or that don’t tie in with their own worldview.
Examples:
- True atheism cannot argue any moral code (evil doesn’t exist, because morals are subjective)
- On the flip side, true good/ virtue cannot exist in the atheistic, materialist/ naturalist view.
- And in accordance with atheistic philosophers, like David Chalmers, the atheistic viewpoint cannot explain conscienceness. Darwinian explanation would explain us being more like computers (http://clearysviewpoint.blogspot.com/201...bies.html)

If we are all truly questioning everything, and looking for the truth, then we are looking for the answers that all truly and fully explain all life’s questions. Theism is filled with doubts, but so is atheism. So let us move forward, being objective, and working within a consistently atheistic worldview.

Thoughts? I am eager to find the truth.
An Atheist is someone who has a lack of belief in god(s) and that's about it. There is no "atheistic viewpoint" on anything but the existence of god(s), which is why the examples you mentioned are merely the viewpoints of individuals. For the same reason, there is no "atheistic worldview". If anything, that would be a "secular viewpoint" or a "secular worldview".

That being said, what doubts are there that atheism is filled with? Name me one example.

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01-10-2012, 08:24 AM
RE: The Thinking Atheist is Not an Atheist
(01-10-2012 08:12 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Considering the image of a typically sock puppet I wouldn't say that that is what chas is saying at all.
The hand does not go up the puppets ass but rather the puppet is made with no lower torso and so the hand is actually entering up through the best area and reaching into the skull.

So if Chas is imply anything he is implying that you be put in half and have Bucky then insert his hand into your half mangled body and reach up into your skull and use you then as a sock puppet.

So don't worry, nobody's hand needs to go up anyones ass.

Erxomai, you mean.

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01-10-2012, 08:26 AM
RE: The Thinking Atheist is Not an Atheist
Erx, Chas, Bucky whatever, they're all the same. Tongue

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01-10-2012, 08:32 AM
RE: The Thinking Atheist is Not an Atheist
(30-09-2012 07:43 PM)titus221_panda Wrote:  The title was meant to grab everyone’s attention.
Firstly, I truly believe everyone who is claiming atheism IS an atheist. “The Thinking Atheist,” is included in the list.
My point is that The Thinking Atheist, and most atheists on the forums here, argue against god(s) and religion like they are angry theists.
Examples:
- Disproving the effectiveness, practicality, or function of prayer, does not disprove god(s). It can only prove that god(s) is/are either ignoring men, or just cruel.
- Disproving any “holy books,” cannot disprove any god(s). It can only disprove the god or gods associated with that holy book.
- Proving scientific claims cannot disprove god(s). Only proves that science is true, because any god(s) who can create, can create within the laws of nature.
- Proving theists are stupid does not disprove theism. Only proves that humans are usually stupid.
- Proving the corruption within religious systems does not disprove god(s). It can only prove that those systems are run by corrupt people.
The list goes on…
Also, The Thinking Atheist and many atheists here, use arguments that hold no philosophical or substantial meaning, or that don’t tie in with their own worldview.
Examples:
- True atheism cannot argue any moral code (evil doesn’t exist, because morals are subjective)
- On the flip side, true good/ virtue cannot exist in the atheistic, materialist/ naturalist view.
- And in accordance with atheistic philosophers, like David Chalmers, the atheistic viewpoint cannot explain conscienceness. Darwinian explanation would explain us being more like computers (http://clearysviewpoint.blogspot.com/201...bies.html)

If we are all truly questioning everything, and looking for the truth, then we are looking for the answers that all truly and fully explain all life’s questions. Theism is filled with doubts, but so is atheism. So let us move forward, being objective, and working within a consistently atheistic worldview.

Thoughts? I am eager to find the truth.
I don't require proof that no god exists. I require proof that any one god does exist. So far I've found nothing; not one shred or supporting evidence. Anything that has ever been presented to me as "evidence" has had so many holes in it that it was disqualified as real evidence.

I also believe that if any god did exist, we would have seen him long before now. So where is he/she/it?

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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01-10-2012, 08:42 AM
RE: The Thinking Atheist is Not an Atheist
(01-10-2012 08:26 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Erx, Chas, Bucky whatever, they're all the same. Tongue

No, we're not. Angry But we do have a secret handshake.Yes

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-10-2012, 10:27 AM
RE: The Thinking Atheist is Not an Atheist
I think we got ourselves a drive-by Theist.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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01-10-2012, 10:46 AM
RE: The Thinking Atheist is Not an Atheist
Vosur, my thoughts exactly.

I've only heard this "worldview" perspective from WLCraig etc. I've never heard an atheist presume to talk for all atheists.

Of course, Egor would claim the Atheism is a religion and sometimes I wonder if it might not be a good idea to register as such... think of the tax breaks!

Titus,
What more disproofs / proofs do you need before you start questioning the veracity of the claims that gods exist?

(30-09-2012 10:12 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  ...invisible, house dwelling goblin unicorns...

(

My goblin house-dwellers just elected me. I am their chosen king!

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01-10-2012, 11:05 AM (This post was last modified: 01-10-2012 11:25 AM by kineo.)
RE: The Thinking Atheist is Not an Atheist
(30-09-2012 07:43 PM)titus221_panda Wrote:  My point is that The Thinking Atheist, and most atheists on the forums here, argue against god(s) and religion like they are angry theists.

There are a lot of people who came from Christianity and have been dealing with that past part of their lives for quite some time. It's not an easy transition- you don't realize how much of your thought process filters through religion until you've shed it from your life. Then you start to see how it's impacted you in ways you didn't realize. Especially if you were indoctrinated from an early age, or involved in the heavily manipulation-based sects, or both. That shit gets in you. So, as a result, when folks start moving away from it, you have a lot of people getting angry that they've lost a good deal of their one and only life to something so... wasteful. I am one of those people- angry at religion and the religious dogma- not at some imagined deity.

I'll say, however, that I'm personally happy with where I am at now. It's just taken a decade to get here. Now I can look forward to continued learning and thinking about the things from which I was steered away by my faith- in one way or another. Mostly in that it seemed less interesting when it all had one explanation in God, but now it seems so much more interesting. I enjoy learning about cosmology, astronomy, biology, anthropology, etc. (all casual learning, but learning none-the-less).

So, all of that to say- yeah you have some angry ex-theists. Also there are many angry atheists who have little background in theism- but are still actively affected by theism. Christianity and Islam are far-reaching religions with some very powerful affects on daily life in every part of the world; some are positive results, and many are negative. From limitations on civil rights for minority groups, to violence, to irrational behavior motivated by blind faith and religious fervor, to the set backs in science, to the hoarding of wealth by religious leaders claiming moral superiority because they give a small percentage to charity (with strings attached frequently). There's a lot of be angry about.

(30-09-2012 07:43 PM)titus221_panda Wrote:  Examples:
- Disproving the effectiveness, practicality, or function of prayer, does not disprove god(s). It can only prove that god(s) is/are either ignoring men, or just cruel.
- Disproving any “holy books,” cannot disprove any god(s). It can only disprove the god or gods associated with that holy book.
- Proving scientific claims cannot disprove god(s). Only proves that science is true, because any god(s) who can create, can create within the laws of nature.
- Proving theists are stupid does not disprove theism. Only proves that humans are usually stupid.
- Proving the corruption within religious systems does not disprove god(s). It can only prove that those systems are run by corrupt people.
The list goes on…

All of these are good points. Except the first one needs some adjustment. Disproving the effectiveness of prayer doesn't disprove any gods, it simply shows that prayer is not legitimate evidence for the existence of the god to which a person is praying- not that they are ignoring people or are cruel.

But what does any of that have to do with inconsistencies within atheism (which is what you suggest in the final sentence of your post)? Do you mean to say that we shouldn't point out these flaws?

Pointing at the different facets of religion and calling out their inconsistencies delegitimizes the power these religions hold in everyday life. Prayer, holy books, religious leadership, religious laws- all of these are no longer sacred to us and we can point at each of them and say why; showing other people that they hold no power and are quite fallible like the rest of us. Religion doesn't get a free pass anymore.

(30-09-2012 07:43 PM)titus221_panda Wrote:  Also, The Thinking Atheist and many atheists here, use arguments that hold no philosophical or substantial meaning, or that don’t tie in with their own worldview.
Examples:
- True atheism cannot argue any moral code (evil doesn’t exist, because morals are subjective)
- On the flip side, true good/ virtue cannot exist in the atheistic, materialist/ naturalist view.
- And in accordance with atheistic philosophers, like David Chalmers, the atheistic viewpoint cannot explain conscienceness. Darwinian explanation would explain us being more like computers (http://clearysviewpoint.blogspot.com/201...bies.html)

Chas addressed this well already and I don't have anything to add at the moment.

(30-09-2012 07:43 PM)titus221_panda Wrote:  If we are all truly questioning everything, and looking for the truth, then we are looking for the answers that all truly and fully explain all life’s questions. Theism is filled with doubts, but so is atheism. So let us move forward, being objective, and working within a consistently atheistic worldview.

Thoughts? I am eager to find the truth.

I don't recall Christianity being "filled with doubts"- doubt was something to be driven away by faith, something to be mocked and shouted down or approached with the greatest caution. Doubt was something that those who had been hurt felt as a result of the pain. Absent religion it is neither good nor bad, but both: "either-or" in different situations. So when you say theism is filled with doubts it's a much more severe blow to the system than it is to someone already lacking belief. What do doubts in atheism mean for someone who's reached that position by a rational approach? And where are the doubts born, in science? In the conclusions that we draw from the evidence? Doesn't that just mean you have to look more closely at the evidence?

Also, what would you define as a "consistent atheistic worldview"? I'm all for being consistent.

Lastly, your post suggests a familiarity with these boards but I read your intro thread and you just signed up. Have you been lurking or something?
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01-10-2012, 03:13 PM
RE: The Thinking Atheist is Not an Atheist
I know this thread covers a lot of topics, but there is one part I am int.erested in commenting on, if for no other reason, than to help the op understand where we are coming from.

When we are told by theists what we believe and how we feel, it makes us angry. The whole "angry atheists" thing is just a convenient way for theists to say, "meh, those atheists are all so angry. They must be miserable without religion." But that's bullshit. Theists have a tendency to read our words in an angry tone because they have assumed we are angry. That makes us angry! Or at least it pisses me off. If you stop assuming how we feel and what we believe (since we all have our own views on things) then you may actually be able to hear what we are saying. Otherwise, it's all just the words you want to put in our mouths.

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01-10-2012, 03:18 PM
RE: The Thinking Atheist is Not an Atheist
(01-10-2012 03:13 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  I know this thread covers a lot of topics, but there is one part I am int.erested in commenting on, if for no other reason, than to help the op understand where we are coming from.

When we are told by theists what we believe and how we feel, it makes us angry. The whole "angry atheists" thing is just a convenient way for theists to say, "meh, those atheists are all so angry. They must be miserable without religion." But that's bullshit. Theists have a tendency to read our words in an angry tone because they have assumed we are angry. That makes us angry! Or at least it pisses me off. If you stop assuming how we feel and what we believe (since we all have our own views on things) then you may actually be able to hear what we are saying. Otherwise, it's all just the words you want to put in our mouths.

I couldn't hear you over all the shouting.

Take a breath.

Stop being so angry.

Now, tell me in a calm way WHAT YOUR FREAKIN PROBLEM IS!

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