The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
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27-03-2014, 08:47 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 08:31 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  Great! Thanks for the suggestions! Smile

I'll keep those titles in mind. And I see what you mean about reading pro-evolution books first.

Really, it is a mistake to think of them as "pro-evolution" books. That's like calling a Volcanology book "pro-volcanoes".

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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27-03-2014, 08:47 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 08:46 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(27-03-2014 08:27 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  What do you think I am trying to learn here man? That's what I'm asking about!

You will note that that comment is not directed at you.

Oh.. sorry lol.
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27-03-2014, 08:50 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 08:42 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(27-03-2014 08:22 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  Well, I am assuming that the little bite that came on that comment is because you were trying to insult me... Great job...

Anyway, you are correct. I haven't read those books. I only know what I've heard form other sources. So, that is why I said that I couldn't make an accurate judgement regarding his work.

No, I was not trying to insult you - please don't play the aggrieved Christian card.

I was pointing out that commenting on things that you don't actually know anything about is a bad idea. Your opinions on them are worthless.

It was obvious from your comments that you had not read any books on evolution except possibly ones from other people who don't understand evolution.

Is that a card? I wish I'd known...

You'll note that I mentioned from the get go that I could not make an accurate judgment of his works. What purpose does it serve then to tell me that which I have already admitted?
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27-03-2014, 08:51 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 08:45 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  
(27-03-2014 07:39 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  Christian,

First, I would be terribly disappointed if you turned out to be just another troll and there are some things that you've said that have me wondering, but I'll reserve judgement until at least Day 2, but I'm hopeful you're not one. Big Grin

Second, your words don't seem to ring true with me, and here's why: You mention not seeing all of the evidence for evolution as a reason not to believe and you question theories. When someone asked what theories you question such as gravity and plate tectonics, you casually mentioned that you can see things falling and earthquakes as why you believe those theories.

But here's the rub: You've never seen the actual plates shifting that cause the mountains to shoot...[SNIP]... except our evidence is peer-reviewed) and this doesn't have to threaten your belief in any god (we can do that with so many other things). Big Grin

Nope, no trolling here! I am interested in finding out what things I said that seemed trollish though... lol

The first time I wrote this it was longer, but I'm gonna try to shorten it up this time around.

You are right. I haven't witnessed the plates shift nor gravity itself, but I have personally witnessed the effects of these things which makes it rather silly to for me to say they aren't proven. Whether they are still called theories or not, I know first hand that these things happen. And I know that it was science that first taught that gravity is the reason things fall and plates shifting are the reason we have earthquakes and that it isn't zeus belching beneath the earth lol. The only difference is that I haven't personally and knowingly witness the process of evolution. Now, whether I have just been oblivious is another matter altogether!! lol

I am not resistant to truly learning or accepting evolution, after all you can accept something without 100% certainty. I accept that I could be hit by a drunk driver, but that doesn't mean I'm certain of it, ya know? And yes I know that the two don't equally correlate, but it's just an example..

And like I've said, I believed in God before I believed in the Bible, although now I believe in both, and so I don't think that I have accepted those things because they "fit" into my paradigm, but simply that they are true and acceptable. Evolution is acceptable as well, I just was unaware that anyone had proven it to be true. Neither did I know that "theory" in science equates to "fact".

And yes, I got the Dr. part of Dr. Tyson. My mistake. I'm not disagreeing with them, I'm simply saying that I choose to withhold 100% certainty until such time as I am able to review all of the evidence out there, you see?

And I came to this website because I recognize that the majority of atheists, unlike most theists (though more are emerging everyday that actually care) are truly interested and passionate about these subjects and so I thought that you all would have some much desired information Smile

Fair enough. Keep an open mind, read the books without god and you'll see evolution is true. The mere fact that flu shots are different every year is how you are seeing evolution with your own eyes, just like you can see a roll of quarters fall off a table to prove gravity.

Check out my atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
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Atheism promotes critical thinking; theism promotes hypocritical thinking. -- Me
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27-03-2014, 08:51 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 08:47 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(27-03-2014 08:31 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  Great! Thanks for the suggestions! Smile

I'll keep those titles in mind. And I see what you mean about reading pro-evolution books first.

Really, it is a mistake to think of them as "pro-evolution" books. That's like calling a Volcanology book "pro-volcanoes".

I really like how you are going through all of my posts and responding to the ones that you don't like... Does it really matter if I call them pro evolution books? What affect does that have on you? Why is that important enough to elicit a response? I only said pro evolution because there are people who don't believe in evolution. There isn't anyone who doesn't believe in volcanoes, so that doesn't really follow.
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27-03-2014, 08:53 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 08:46 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  Well, he's not my hero... and I don't know where he says that since he is both a Christian and a someone who agrees with evolutionary theory...

I will double-check that, but he employs such false dichotomies constantly. Among many, many other fallacies.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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27-03-2014, 08:54 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 08:31 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  I'll keep those titles in mind. And I see what you mean about reading pro-evolution books first. I will do that so I have a proper idea of the subject rather than any anti-evolution author's biased works.
Just one minor thing.
It's not that the anti-evolution author's works are biased.
An anti-evolution person might consider pro-evolution books as being biased.

It's just that the anti-evolution books are just that, they are ANTI-evolution.

They don't offer an alternative to evolution. They don't provide scientific evidence for an alternative theory. What they do is attempt to refute evolution.

So in order to understand the refutation, you must first know what the original theory is.
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27-03-2014, 08:56 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 08:38 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(27-03-2014 08:20 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  Upset much?

Not at all, and it would be a mistake for you to delude yourself into thinking so.



Quote: For experience, how about healings and miracles witnessed by me personally?

You have said nothing.



Quote: How about transcendent peace?

How about word salad Does that even mean anything?


Quote:How about speaking to God?

I can speak to the Flying Spaghetti Monster. That means nothing.


Quote: But you won't accept those things, so why even ask me about it?

What makes you think I "won't accept these things"? Of course I am not gullible and credulous and I require evidence, but it is a mistake for you to assume any atheist here is in any way closed-minded. ANY one.

[video=youtube]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI[/video]


Quote: I am learning form Dr. Craig, that's true,

I wouldn't call that "learning" by ANY stretch of the imagination..


Quote: but I'm also reading the Moral Landscape by Sam Harris, There is a God by Antony Flew, Signature in the Cell by Stephen Meyer, and I plan on reading much more. One of those is an atheist and one is a former atheist, so it's not like I'm only reading what theists put out... And Dr. Craig does have good evidence,

Not even a shred. Sophistic "arguments" and semantic Three Card Monte are NOT evidence, ever.


Quote: but it takes an objective consideration of said evidence to come to a conclusion that isn't biased.

See the above qualiasoup video on "open-mindedness. Craig's "evidence"...ISN'T.


Quote: Whether you see it as good evidence or not makes really no difference at all to me..

Then you have a problem.


Quote:But either way, I've said multiple times that I didn't come to argue, but merely to learn, so why is it that you much point by point take apart what I've said? This isn't a debate here, simply conversation.

You have made several assertions by fiat. I am gently questioning them. Several of them have already turned out to have stood on extremely shaky ground.


Quote:And I'm not trying to feed my "delusions", again, I am trying to learn. Hence me asking questions.

Um, reading Bill Craig, and especially taking the shit he says seriously, IS feeding delusions. Whether you like hearing it or not.

You do get the "personal" in personal experience right? Maybe you can talk to the famed flying spaghetti monster, I wouldn't know.. I'm not you. This further makes my point that there is no purpose in asking me about things that you can never see.

I never said that any one here was closed minded...

Really though, I don't care what you think of Dr. Craig's arguments. Why is that so important to you? You have given no evidence that his arguments are false. All you've done is provide your own opinions.

Assertions do not equal invitations for argumentation or debate.
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27-03-2014, 08:57 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 08:54 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(27-03-2014 08:31 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  I'll keep those titles in mind. And I see what you mean about reading pro-evolution books first. I will do that so I have a proper idea of the subject rather than any anti-evolution author's biased works.
Just one minor thing.
It's not that the anti-evolution author's works are biased.
An anti-evolution person might consider pro-evolution books as being biased.

It's just that the anti-evolution books are just that, they are ANTI-evolution.

They don't offer an alternative to evolution. They don't provide scientific evidence for an alternative theory. What they do is attempt to refute evolution.

So in order to understand the refutation, you must first know what the original theory is.

Okay I gotcha. Thanks for clearing that up. I hadn't thought of it that way...
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27-03-2014, 08:58 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 08:51 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  
(27-03-2014 08:47 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Really, it is a mistake to think of them as "pro-evolution" books. That's like calling a Volcanology book "pro-volcanoes".

I really like how you are going through all of my posts and responding to the ones that you don't like...

That would be a "Mind-Reading Fallacy".


Quote:Does it really matter if I call them pro evolution books?

Yes, it does. It belies your bias. Or the one you have been taught to cling to, as may be the case..


Quote: What affect does that have on you?

None at all You however, it makes look ignorant and backward. Sort of like using the word "evidences" as a plural noun.


Quote: Why is that important enough to elicit a response?

Just trying to protect you from yourself. Since you seem genuinely curious and actually eager and open to learn. Which is rare, if true.

Quote:I only said pro evolution because there are people who don't believe in evolution.

Yeah. "Teach the controversy", and all that. .There is no controversy.

Quote:There isn't anyone who doesn't believe in volcanoes, so that doesn't really follow.

It's stupid to not "believe in" volcanoes. Same with evolution.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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