The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
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27-03-2014, 07:00 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 06:58 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  
(27-03-2014 06:20 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  Alright lets continue. Next is something called convergent evolution. This is when animals of two different groups evolve similar patterns due to their environment being the same, or because they both coincidentally used the same shape in a certain body part. Mososaurs and Cetaceans both have a convergent evolution. Both of these animals are tetrapods(includes amphibians and amniotes). During there evolution both of these animals where able to first adapt to their marine environment and then evolve to suit it. Over the years eventually both of these animals where able to become marine super animals.

http://dinosaurs.about.com/od/typesofdin...asaurs.htm

http://www.talkorigins.org/features/whales/

I thank you for the sources! And the info Smile How do we know all of this stuff? Have paleontologists uncovered all of this? Like I said lol, I don't know much about evolution, especially regarding how we know all this stuff about all these creatures...

Yes actually. If you want more add me on xbox if you want. I can explain evolution in more detail.

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27-03-2014, 07:00 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 06:22 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  
(27-03-2014 06:16 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  Yeah I mean that I though that micro and adaptation were pretty much the same thing. So what do you mean by micro I.E. dogs? When dogs interbreed?

What is micro exactly if not the adaptation to environment and such within a species?

Micro is changes in a population of the same species. Dogs are micro because despite all the changes they are still Canis lupus familiaris. Macro as I said before is speciation. SO when you see ring species that is macro evolution.

Okay I gotcha Smile Now, what type of animals would this include? Would it be macro when a lion and tiger mated to form a liger or tigon? Or are those the same species technically? I'm wondering what species are so closely related that they could successfully mate without being exactly in the same species.
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27-03-2014, 07:03 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 07:00 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  
(27-03-2014 06:22 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  Micro is changes in a population of the same species. Dogs are micro because despite all the changes they are still Canis lupus familiaris. Macro as I said before is speciation. SO when you see ring species that is macro evolution.

Okay I gotcha Smile Now, what type of animals would this include? Would it be macro when a lion and tiger mated to form a liger or tigon? Or are those the same species technically? I'm wondering what species are so closely related that they could successfully mate without being exactly in the same species.

Yes because they are different species. However they can still interbreed. Speciation doesn't automatically mean that they can't breed. If they are different species and can't inter breed most will have infertile off spring.

[Image: Guilmon-41189.gif] ♪僕は恐怖の一定した状態に住んで、不幸、逃すもう?僕は、それはもう痛いときも気づかないと
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27-03-2014, 07:03 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 06:32 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(27-03-2014 06:22 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  Micro is changes in a population of the same species. Dogs are micro because despite all the changes they are still Canis lupus familiaris. Macro as I said before is speciation. SO when you see ring species that is macro evolution.

I'd advise against using that terminology ("micro"/"macro") at all, Paleo. It's tainted by association, not to mention a fundamentally meaningless distinction.

"Evolution" means a change in a population's makeup over time.

As originally proposed this mean a change in phenotype. Now we know it as a change in genotype.

Because given the three precepts of the theory:
A) individuals within a population exhibit variation
B) variation influences likelihood of survival and reproduction
C) variation is hereditary
the result is inevitable. It cannot be denied by a rational, thinking observer.

The next question is how variation influences survival. This is known as selective pressure. Selective pressure may be stabilising - in which case a trait is already at a local adaptive minimum; it may be directional - in which case the population will exhibit a gradual shift; or it may be divergent, in which case there are multiple directions favoured away from the present state.

If divergent pressure persists, sub-populations may emerge which favour different adaptive directions. If the two become sufficiently different they are considered different species. Therefore speciation is also an inevitable consequence of the precepts of the theory.
(and has been observed many, many times)

Wow, that's great info! Thanks!

I am intrigued! I know that most Christians vehemently deny evolution, but if it is true and provable then I want to know Smile
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27-03-2014, 07:04 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 06:58 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(27-03-2014 06:51 PM)Lightvader Wrote:  ...
benefitial
benneficial
...

These are not the words you are looking for.

Beneficial

and maybe... detrimental?

damnit,you have to correct my spelling?

I don't really like going outside.
It's too damn "peopley" out there....
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27-03-2014, 07:05 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 07:04 PM)Lightvader Wrote:  
(27-03-2014 06:58 PM)DLJ Wrote:  These are not the words you are looking for.

Beneficial

and maybe... detrimental?

damnit,* you have to correct my spelling?


*Dammit Drinking Beverage

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27-03-2014, 07:05 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 06:34 PM)Jeffasaurus Wrote:  
(27-03-2014 06:13 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  Where can that be found to watch?

At a bookstore. You can "watch" the pages turn.

Quote:And I don't know about Dawkins, with the whole selfish gene thing... Not that I know a ton about his works. Just a little so I coudln't make a good judgement there.

I am watching the videos on the Khan Academy app about evolution though lol

I'm not familiar with the Khan Academy (is that inside the U.S.S. Botany Bay?Wink), but there are several decent YouTube videos to be found.

OH haha, I assumed that you meant that it was "the greatest show on earth" in your opinion. haha. Not on TV then lol.

The Khan Academy is a free website/windows app that has teaching videos on math and science and stuff Smile
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27-03-2014, 07:09 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 06:51 PM)Lightvader Wrote:  
(27-03-2014 06:10 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  But all we can really se is micro-evolution. Isn't that really just adaptation? Which can be accepted as not evolution at all? But simply how species work depending on their geographical location and such?

*at the risk that thepaleothicfreethinker explained it better*

micro- and macroevolution are the same thing,only is the so-called macroevolution the change of populations over longer time periods (like thousands of years)

it works like this:
random mutation occurs when new offspring is created.
Most of the time this is not benefitial for survival,some times it is benefitial,and sometimes it is the opposite of benneficial(sorry,the word won't pop in my head)
now,when it(the mutation) is not benefitial,it will not spread much in future generations,when it is the opposite it will die out,and when it is beneficial it will spread trough the population in future generations. And over time,all these mutations lead up so much that they cannot mate with the other that did not have the same mutations.

To give you an example:
suppose you had a group of mice and you split them in 2 groups.
Now,you set different conditions for both groups,like colder temps for one and higher tems for the other.
When the mice reproduce,there will occur random mutations,and if they are beneficial tey will spread trough future generations. Since beneficial is relative to the conditions (thick fur would be beneficial in cold areas,whereas not in hot areas).
After a few hunderd generations the mice would differ so much,and after a few thousand generations they would differ even more,maybe even different enough tmice from group a cannot crossbreed with group B.

You can read up about the lensky project where a complete new bacteria appeared due to mutations after a few thousands of generations. This new bacteria could life on citric acid on aerobic(ar anearobic) conditions,whereas the previous generations could not. It is easy to follow evolution trough bacteria since these reproduce fast

Smile Cool thanks for explaining.. Is it provable or observable that other life forms behave in the same way that viruses do?
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27-03-2014, 07:10 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 07:09 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  
(27-03-2014 06:51 PM)Lightvader Wrote:  *at the risk that thepaleothicfreethinker explained it better*

micro- and macroevolution are the same thing,only is the so-called macroevolution the change of populations over longer time periods (like thousands of years)

it works like this:
random mutation occurs when new offspring is created.
Most of the time this is not benefitial for survival,some times it is benefitial,and sometimes it is the opposite of benneficial(sorry,the word won't pop in my head)
now,when it(the mutation) is not benefitial,it will not spread much in future generations,when it is the opposite it will die out,and when it is beneficial it will spread trough the population in future generations. And over time,all these mutations lead up so much that they cannot mate with the other that did not have the same mutations.

To give you an example:
suppose you had a group of mice and you split them in 2 groups.
Now,you set different conditions for both groups,like colder temps for one and higher tems for the other.
When the mice reproduce,there will occur random mutations,and if they are beneficial tey will spread trough future generations. Since beneficial is relative to the conditions (thick fur would be beneficial in cold areas,whereas not in hot areas).
After a few hunderd generations the mice would differ so much,and after a few thousand generations they would differ even more,maybe even different enough tmice from group a cannot crossbreed with group B.

You can read up about the lensky project where a complete new bacteria appeared due to mutations after a few thousands of generations. This new bacteria could life on citric acid on aerobic(ar anearobic) conditions,whereas the previous generations could not. It is easy to follow evolution trough bacteria since these reproduce fast

Smile Cool thanks for explaining.. Is it provable or observable that other life forms behave in the same way that viruses do?

Bacteria and viruses are not the same thing. Viruses aren't even organisms.

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27-03-2014, 07:11 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 07:03 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  
(27-03-2014 07:00 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  Okay I gotcha Smile Now, what type of animals would this include? Would it be macro when a lion and tiger mated to form a liger or tigon? Or are those the same species technically? I'm wondering what species are so closely related that they could successfully mate without being exactly in the same species.

Yes because they are different species. However they can still interbreed. Speciation doesn't automatically mean that they can't breed. If they are different species and can't inter breed most will have infertile off spring.

Well I'm more of a PS man myself.. Lol but I do have a Surface 2 which is Windows 8.1 I think. Anyway, it's at home right now, but It has xbox games and music and such on it, could I add you somehow through that?
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