The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
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27-03-2014, 07:35 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 07:03 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  Wow, that's great info! Thanks!

I... must ask.

Is that sort of information really so new to you?

Because the quick little explanation I just gave is high-school level biology.
(well - here it would be; I assume you're American? Where, specifically?)

(27-03-2014 07:03 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  I am intrigued! I know that most Christians vehemently deny evolution, but if it is true and provable then I want to know Smile

That's an attitude I have never understood.

If God created the universe then how could learning more about it ever be a bad thing?

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27-03-2014, 07:35 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 07:09 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  Smile Cool thanks for explaining.. Is it provable or observable that other life forms behave in the same way that viruses do?
yes,but at a much slower rate.
At the top af my head i can name only of a few examples lol. The peppermoth .
During the industrial revolution, the air became populated and stuff,and the trees discolored . The bottom line is that due the change of conditions,the moths that had the black-grey color had a much higher chance of survival than the white moths,because the camouflage of the white moth was now disadvantaged,while the mutation that collored this moth black-grey,while previously not adding much (dis)advantage,now showed to be an exelent camouflage.
I may be wrong about the colors tho.
Another example is the resistance of insects against pesticides.
Fruitflies wich addapted to new conditions and food as well.
Random muration can be proven with all species. Your DNA differs fron your father and mother,as well as your siblings. And this is used in investigations by the police.
Adaption and eventually speciation can be shown with the previous examples i gave.
I realize i may not be coherent and make a lot of spelling mistakes,but you'll have to cut me some slack since english aint my native language(yay! I finally used it as an excuse) and i'm watching my favo series atm

I don't really like going outside.
It's too damn "peopley" out there....
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27-03-2014, 07:37 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 07:35 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(27-03-2014 07:03 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  Wow, that's great info! Thanks!

I... must ask.

Is that sort of information really so new to you?

Because the quick little explanation I just gave is high-school level biology.
(well - here it would be; I assume you're American? Where, specifically?)

(27-03-2014 07:03 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  I am intrigued! I know that most Christians vehemently deny evolution, but if it is true and provable then I want to know Smile

That's an attitude I have never understood.

If God created the universe then how could learning more about it ever be a bad thing?

Yeah lol. I didn't pay attention in high school, and my college major is criminal justice Smile So I really don't know much about evolution, and that is why I am here! To learn!

And I agree with you there! If God did create the universe, I want to know all I can about it for sure! whether other Christians agree with it or not!
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27-03-2014, 07:38 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 07:18 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  ...
Sure I'll check out the studies Smile

And Euthyphro, I haven't really read it, I just skimmed over it and maybe I should read it all the way through, but I wonder... What does piety and those definitions have to do with objective morality and such?

And thanks!

OK. If you feel ready for it, check out these.

But beware of something called Cognitive Dissonance. If what you watch below makes you feel uncomfortable, it's probably that ol' Cog-Dis. So, I advise to stop watching until you feel more neutral-brained.








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27-03-2014, 07:39 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
Christian,

First, I would be terribly disappointed if you turned out to be just another troll and there are some things that you've said that have me wondering, but I'll reserve judgement until at least Day 2, but I'm hopeful you're not one. Big Grin

Second, your words don't seem to ring true with me, and here's why: You mention not seeing all of the evidence for evolution as a reason not to believe and you question theories. When someone asked what theories you question such as gravity and plate tectonics, you casually mentioned that you can see things falling and earthquakes as why you believe those theories.

But here's the rub: You've never seen the actual plates shifting that cause the mountains to shoot into the sky or buildings to quake and the ground to move. So when exactly did you see (with your own eyes) miles beneath the earth's surface these plates shifting and wreaking havoc on the earth? For all you know, it could be Zeus belching after drinking a rather frothy glass of root beer (I have it on good authority he likes A&W and don't ever give him Barq's because Apollo slipped him some once and that's when Zeus unleashed Hurricane Andrew on South Florida). Because admit it, you've never seen any plate shift.

So, is it safe to say you accept earthquakes as a result of shifting plates because science explained it in a manner that doesn't conflict with your idea of god or what's in the bible? And it's this very reason why you are resistant to truly learning/accepting that evolution is fact and is indeed proved (despite your earlier comment that it's not)? There is more evidence that evolution is real/fact than any other scientific endeavor in human history. When you disagree with DR. Tyson, you're not disagreeing with some dude on TV, you are choosing not to believe thousands and thousands of the smartest people our species has ever produced, and the hundred-plus years of work and research and evidence they have uncovered in the process.

I admire that you want to see the evidence for yourself, and you should, but coming on an atheist forum is hardly the way to do that. If you put in ANY effort at all by visiting a museum of natural history or watching any of the plethora of links provided on talkorigins.org, then you will see evolution is undeniable (just like you said your personal revelation was, except our evidence is peer-reviewed) and this doesn't have to threaten your belief in any god (we can do that with so many other things). Big Grin

Check out my atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
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Atheism promotes critical thinking; theism promotes hypocritical thinking. -- Me
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27-03-2014, 07:40 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
Also,don't believe thepaleothicfreethinker. He doesn't think KC is a liar Laugh out load

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It's too damn "peopley" out there....
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27-03-2014, 07:40 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 07:35 PM)Lightvader Wrote:  
(27-03-2014 07:09 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  Smile Cool thanks for explaining.. Is it provable or observable that other life forms behave in the same way that viruses do?
yes,but at a much slower rate.
At the top af my head i can name only of a few examples lol. The peppermoth .
During the industrial revolution, the air became populated and stuff,and the trees discolored . The bottom line is that due the change of conditions,the moths that had the black-grey color had a much higher chance of survival than the white moths,because the camouflage of the white moth was now disadvantaged,while the mutation that collored this moth black-grey,while previously not adding much (dis)advantage,now showed to be an exelent camouflage.
I may be wrong about the colors tho.
Another example is the resistance of insects against pesticides.
Fruitflies wich addapted to new conditions and food as well.
Random muration can be proven with all species. Your DNA differs fron your father and mother,as well as your siblings. And this is used in investigations by the police.
Adaption and eventually speciation can be shown with the previous examples i gave.
I realize i may not be coherent and make a lot of spelling mistakes,but you'll have to cut me some slack since english aint my native language(yay! I finally used it as an excuse) and i'm watching my favo series atm

I have heard about the moths! Smile But that's one of the few things I've heard in favor of evolution so I appreciate the info! And it's okay np with the spelling mistakes. What is your native language and fav series may I ask?
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27-03-2014, 07:42 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 07:38 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(27-03-2014 07:18 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  ...
Sure I'll check out the studies Smile

And Euthyphro, I haven't really read it, I just skimmed over it and maybe I should read it all the way through, but I wonder... What does piety and those definitions have to do with objective morality and such?

And thanks!

OK. If you feel ready for it, check out these.

But beware of something called Cognitive Dissonance. If what you watch below makes you feel uncomfortable, it's probably that ol' Cog-Dis. So, I advise to stop watching until you feel more neutral-brained.








Thanks! I'll have to email myself the links though because the computer I'm on currently does not allow me to watch youtube... Lame I know. And I'll watch out for ol' Cog-Dis lol. And look at that, I learned a new term! lol
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27-03-2014, 07:51 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 07:40 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  
(27-03-2014 07:35 PM)Lightvader Wrote:  yes,but at a much slower rate.
At the top af my head i can name only of a few examples lol. The peppermoth .
During the industrial revolution, the air became populated and stuff,and the trees discolored . The bottom line is that due the change of conditions,the moths that had the black-grey color had a much higher chance of survival than the white moths,because the camouflage of the white moth was now disadvantaged,while the mutation that collored this moth black-grey,while previously not adding much (dis)advantage,now showed to be an exelent camouflage.
I may be wrong about the colors tho.
Another example is the resistance of insects against pesticides.
Fruitflies wich addapted to new conditions and food as well.
Random muration can be proven with all species. Your DNA differs fron your father and mother,as well as your siblings. And this is used in investigations by the police.
Adaption and eventually speciation can be shown with the previous examples i gave.
I realize i may not be coherent and make a lot of spelling mistakes,but you'll have to cut me some slack since english aint my native language(yay! I finally used it as an excuse) and i'm watching my favo series atm

I have heard about the moths! Smile But that's one of the few things I've heard in favor of evolution so I appreciate the info! And it's okay np with the spelling mistakes. What is your native language and fav series may I ask?
dutch is my native language and my favo series is "person of interest" tho it is just a tiny bit higher than the arrow

I don't really like going outside.
It's too damn "peopley" out there....
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27-03-2014, 07:56 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 06:13 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  
(27-03-2014 06:10 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  But all we can really se is micro-evolution. Isn't that really just adaptation? Which can be accepted as not evolution at all? But simply how species work depending on their geographical location and such?

No. Again speciation is macro. Adaptation is just getting used to. If a animal gets used to an environment and the generations show no change, that is adaptation. Second the generations are different from before, that is evolution.
I personally don't like the concept of macro evolution, it is confusing.

All replicating life forms evolve. It is unavoidable. Humans are evolving as we speak.

The copy process regarding DNA replication is imperfect.
Although mostly offspring are similar to their parents they also have some "mistakes".
The characteristics of life forms are dependent on their DNA.
Some lifeforms are better suited to live and replicate than others.
The poorly suited ones die out, the better suited ones become more prevalent.
e.g. Cheetahs get faster over the generations because the slower ones starve because they are unable to catch the fast antelope.
Antelope get faster over the generations because the slower ones get eaten.
Over time both cheetahs and antelope become very fast because of the pressures they have put on one another.
A similar case happens for trees, why they are so damn tall because they compete against each other to get the sun, the shorter ones are blocked out by the taller ones.

But regarding micro/macro evolution. There is no purpose for these "mistakes", they do not happen in order to adapt an animal to their environment and they do not happen in order to speciate.
These "mistakes" happen because the copy process isn't perfect.

Adaption happens due to the fact that some DNA structures are more suited to survive and replicate (given the pressures of their changing environment).

Speciation happens due to the adaptation changes coupled with separation. Seperation could be natural barriers e.g. Islands, mountains, distance etc.
Over time these separated communities become so different that they are no longer compatible (reproduction wise).
Speciation happens in a similar way to which languages evolve, customs evolve etc, when two groups are seperated they are no longer able to intermix and influence each other hence they naturally diverge.

But the "mistakes" process and the natural selection process is exactly the same, thus the evolution is exactly the same between Adaptation and Speciation.

With regards to speciation:
Every single child is the same species as their parents. A new species does not suddenly appear. It might take 10,000 generations for a life form to evolve enough to be considered a new species.
i.e. If you were able to freeze a person in time and then let their kids have kids and their kids have kids for 10,000 generations and then re-animate the frozen ancestor you may find that this ancestor cannot procreate with the newest generation.

It gets confusing be cause Homo Sapiens are marked as having lived at a certain time and then Homo Erectus at a different time. This might give someone the false impression that there is a clear deliniation from a Homo Erectus to a Homo Sapien. But at no point in history did a Homo Erectus ever give birth to a Homo Sapien.

Ring species are a great example of this.

There are many accessible books at the library.
There are also many creationist books which attempt to refute evolution. You can read those too if you want to know what their objections are.
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