The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
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27-03-2014, 07:57 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 07:03 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  I am intrigued! I know that most Christians vehemently deny evolution,
there are also lots of Christians whom accept evolution. Evolution doesn't have to be a barrier to your religious beliefs and your religious beliefs don't have to be a barrier to informing yourself about the ideas and evidence for evolution.
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27-03-2014, 07:57 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 07:51 PM)Lightvader Wrote:  
(27-03-2014 07:40 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  I have heard about the moths! Smile But that's one of the few things I've heard in favor of evolution so I appreciate the info! And it's okay np with the spelling mistakes. What is your native language and fav series may I ask?
dutch is my native language and my favo series is "person of interest" tho it is just a tiny bit higher than the arrow

Dutch? Interesting! I've never even heard that language spoken I don't believe... And Arrow is definitely at the top of my list too Smile
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27-03-2014, 07:58 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 06:04 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  Evolution is the best model of biodiversity that we have. You see evolution every time you see a change in the population. There are two levels of evolution micro and macro. Micro is within a population 9(i.e dogs) macro is when a large genetic change happens (i.e speciation)

No, that is completely incorrect.

There is no 'macro' evolution is the sense you are saying

The only difference between 'micro' and 'macro' evolution is time. 'Macro' evolution is the accumulation of 'micro' evolution.

Speciation is only observable in retrospect, and it is most certainly not a large genetic change all at once. There isn't really a point in time that one can point to and say "Aha! It's a new species!".

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-03-2014, 08:00 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 06:01 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  Evolution is unproven.

What, because YOU said so? Fallacious Appeal to Ignorance and Personal Incredulity much?

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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27-03-2014, 08:01 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 08:00 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(27-03-2014 06:01 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  Evolution is unproven.

What, because YOU said so? Fallacious Appeal to Ignorance and Personal Incredulity much?

I addressed this in my post in a little softer fashion, but no reaction yet. I may have struck a nerve.

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27-03-2014, 08:06 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 07:56 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(27-03-2014 06:13 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  No. Again speciation is macro. Adaptation is just getting used to. If a animal gets used to an environment and the generations show no change, that is adaptation. Second the generations are different from before, that is evolution.
I personally don't like the concept of macro evolution, it is confusing.

All replicating life forms evolve. It is unavoidable. Humans are evolving as we speak.

The copy process regarding DNA replication is imperfect.
Although mostly offspring are similar to their parents they also have some "mistakes".
The characteristics of life forms are dependent on their DNA.
Some lifeforms are better suited to live and replicate than others.
The poorly suited ones die out, the better suited ones become more prevalent.
e.g. Cheetahs get faster over the generations because the slower ones starve because they are unable to catch the fast antelope.
Antelope get faster over the generations because the slower ones get eaten.
Over time both cheetahs and antelope become very fast because of the pressures they have put on one another.
A similar case happens for trees, why they are so damn tall because they compete against each other to get the sun, the shorter ones are blocked out by the taller ones.

But regarding micro/macro evolution. There is no purpose for these "mistakes", they do not happen in order to adapt an animal to their environment and they do not happen in order to speciate.
These "mistakes" happen because the copy process isn't perfect.

Adaption happens due to the fact that some DNA structures are more suited to survive and replicate (given the pressures of their changing environment).

Speciation happens due to the adaptation changes coupled with separation. Seperation could be natural barriers e.g. Islands, mountains, distance etc.
Over time these separated communities become so different that they are no longer compatible (reproduction wise).
Speciation happens in a similar way to which languages evolve, customs evolve etc, when two groups are seperated they are no longer able to intermix and influence each other hence they naturally diverge.

But the "mistakes" process and the natural selection process is exactly the same, thus the evolution is exactly the same between Adaptation and Speciation.

With regards to speciation:
Every single child is the same species as their parents. A new species does not suddenly appear. It might take 10,000 generations for a life form to evolve enough to be considered a new species.
i.e. If you were able to freeze a person in time and then let their kids have kids and their kids have kids for 10,000 generations and then re-animate the frozen ancestor you may find that this ancestor cannot procreate with the newest generation.

It gets confusing be cause Homo Sapiens are marked as having lived at a certain time and then Homo Erectus at a different time. This might give someone the false impression that there is a clear deliniation from a Homo Erectus to a Homo Sapien. But at no point in history did a Homo Erectus ever give birth to a Homo Sapien.

Ring species are a great example of this.

There are many accessible books at the library.
There are also many creationist books which attempt to refute evolution. You can read those too if you want to know what their objections are.

Thanks I appreciate you taking the time to explain!! There is a lot more to evolution than I had at first thought...

I will check out my local library too, Lord knows I'm there enough anyway so I'll definitely find time.

Are there any viable refutations to evolutiuon that you know of? Just curious here, not attempting to refute it myself Smile
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27-03-2014, 08:07 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 07:57 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(27-03-2014 07:03 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  I am intrigued! I know that most Christians vehemently deny evolution,
there are also lots of Christians whom accept evolution. Evolution doesn't have to be a barrier to your religious beliefs and your religious beliefs don't have to be a barrier to informing yourself about the ideas and evidence for evolution.

Agreed and agreed Smile
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27-03-2014, 08:08 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 06:10 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  
(27-03-2014 06:04 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  Evolution is the best model of biodiversity that we have. You see evolution every time you see a change in the population. There are two levels of evolution micro and macro. Micro is within a population 9(i.e dogs) macro is when a large genetic change happens (i.e speciation)

Edit

But all we can really se is micro-evolution. Isn't that really just adaptation? Which can be accepted as not evolution at all? But simply how species work depending on their geographical location and such?

No. Evolution is change. Any change. Forget about this dichotomy of 'micro' vs. 'macro'. It is wrong.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-03-2014, 08:08 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 08:06 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  
(27-03-2014 07:56 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I personally don't like the concept of macro evolution, it is confusing.

All replicating life forms evolve. It is unavoidable. Humans are evolving as we speak.

The copy process regarding DNA replication is imperfect.
Although mostly offspring are similar to their parents they also have some "mistakes".
The characteristics of life forms are dependent on their DNA.
Some lifeforms are better suited to live and replicate than others.
The poorly suited ones die out, the better suited ones become more prevalent.
e.g. Cheetahs get faster over the generations because the slower ones starve because they are unable to catch the fast antelope.
Antelope get faster over the generations because the slower ones get eaten.
Over time both cheetahs and antelope become very fast because of the pressures they have put on one another.
A similar case happens for trees, why they are so damn tall because they compete against each other to get the sun, the shorter ones are blocked out by the taller ones.

But regarding micro/macro evolution. There is no purpose for these "mistakes", they do not happen in order to adapt an animal to their environment and they do not happen in order to speciate.
These "mistakes" happen because the copy process isn't perfect.

Adaption happens due to the fact that some DNA structures are more suited to survive and replicate (given the pressures of their changing environment).

Speciation happens due to the adaptation changes coupled with separation. Seperation could be natural barriers e.g. Islands, mountains, distance etc.
Over time these separated communities become so different that they are no longer compatible (reproduction wise).
Speciation happens in a similar way to which languages evolve, customs evolve etc, when two groups are seperated they are no longer able to intermix and influence each other hence they naturally diverge.

But the "mistakes" process and the natural selection process is exactly the same, thus the evolution is exactly the same between Adaptation and Speciation.

With regards to speciation:
Every single child is the same species as their parents. A new species does not suddenly appear. It might take 10,000 generations for a life form to evolve enough to be considered a new species.
i.e. If you were able to freeze a person in time and then let their kids have kids and their kids have kids for 10,000 generations and then re-animate the frozen ancestor you may find that this ancestor cannot procreate with the newest generation.

It gets confusing be cause Homo Sapiens are marked as having lived at a certain time and then Homo Erectus at a different time. This might give someone the false impression that there is a clear deliniation from a Homo Erectus to a Homo Sapien. But at no point in history did a Homo Erectus ever give birth to a Homo Sapien.

Ring species are a great example of this.

There are many accessible books at the library.
There are also many creationist books which attempt to refute evolution. You can read those too if you want to know what their objections are.

Thanks I appreciate you taking the time to explain!! There is a lot more to evolution than I had at first thought...

I will check out my local library too, Lord knows I'm there enough anyway so I'll definitely find time.

Are there any viable refutations to evolutiuon that you know of? Just curious here, not attempting to refute it myself Smile
Of course not, to refute means to prove something untrue. How could there be? Laughat

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27-03-2014, 08:08 PM
RE: The Thinking Christian on COSMOS and evolution
(27-03-2014 06:56 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  But it's not as though I "just believe" in God.

...Really?

Quote:You may not accept experience as evidence, but my experience is undeniable.

And precisely what is this "undeniable" experience.


Quote:Aside from that there are the various arguments that I've come across, the cosmological, the moral, ontological, the historical person of Jesus, fine-tuning (thinking Anthropic principle here), natural laws, blah blah blah... You know....

Blah blah blah is right. Arguments -- such as those you read Bill Craig vomit -- are merely word salad unless they answer to evidence. Of which Bill Craig has precisely ZERO.



Quote: If there is a God, which I believe there is, then I want to know about it!

Wrong place to look here to feed your delusions.






Is this a TTT sock?







(27-03-2014 06:58 PM)TheThinkingChristian Wrote:  Like I said lol, I don't know much about evolution, especially regarding how we know all this stuff about all these creatures...

Then how do you justify making the preposterous claim that is hasn't been proven. Hobo

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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