Poll: Is torture acceptable?
This poll is closed.
Yes, we should be able to do whatever's necessary regardless of the ethical concerns or consequences 0% 0 0%
Yes, but only in specific situations where there's no viable alternative 11.54% 3 11.54%
No, it doesn't work and is morally repugnant 80.77% 21 80.77%
Other. Please explain. 7.69% 2 7.69%
Total 26 votes 100%
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The Torture Debate - Yes, yes with caveats, or no?
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08-07-2017, 10:33 AM
RE: The Torture Debate - Yes, yes with caveats, or no?
(08-07-2017 10:28 AM)adey67 Wrote:  Ki
(08-07-2017 10:11 AM)epronovost Wrote:  The problem, is that you would discover more easily and more quickly that information by using non-violent interrogation method and detention condition than with torture. Torture is really shitty when what you want to obtain is the truth.

The only problem with conventional interrogation is if the situation is time critical. Yes start with the conventional but in some circumstances it maybe necessary to move to the erm, more creative. Wink

And how do you know that being more creative will yield results instead of incoherent streams of word or lie? How will you make right with victim of "creativity" if there was mistake and innocent person was "interrogated"?

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08-07-2017, 10:46 AM (This post was last modified: 08-07-2017 10:51 AM by epronovost.)
RE: The Torture Debate - Yes, yes with caveats, or no?
(08-07-2017 10:28 AM)adey67 Wrote:  The only problem with conventional interrogation is if the situation is time critical. Yes start with the conventional but in some circumstances it maybe necessary to move to the erm, more creative. Wink I don't believe conventional is always quicker, does anyone have any sources or citations ? It would be interesting to know for sure. The Israelis are rumoured to have achieved rapid success with waterboarding.

http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?ha...&id=&page=

According to pretty much all studies in the field (of which the one above is a good sample), torture is worse than non-violent method of interrogation on pretty much all account including speed. Moving from non-violent to violent method is actually the worst idea you could have. It makes you work twice as much for just as little.

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/pac/20/4/590/

This little study also provides a good explanation as to why people think torture can be more efficient than non-violent method of interrogation. It's all linked to threat perception. People are implying a plus-value to torture when they feel personnaly threaten or when someone they are close to is personnaly threatened because humen are violent creatures. We deal with threats with violence even when it's clearly not the right way to go. Remember, we are currently bombing people who bombed us because we bombed them. Can you guess why our strategy to stop the bombing will fail?

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08-07-2017, 10:47 AM
RE: The Torture Debate - Yes, yes with caveats, or no?
(08-07-2017 10:33 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(08-07-2017 10:28 AM)adey67 Wrote:  Ki
The only problem with conventional interrogation is if the situation is time critical. Yes start with the conventional but in some circumstances it maybe necessary to move to the erm, more creative. Wink

And how do you know that being more creative will yield results instead of incoherent streams of word or lie? How will you make right with victim of "creativity" if there was mistake and innocent person was "interrogated"?
Well you'd have to be sure as you could and the situation would have to be mega dire with no other options available for the very reasons you guys pointed out. This is a hypothetical scenario hopefully never to be enacted my take on it is torture is unspeakably horrible but never say never under extraordinary circumstances.
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08-07-2017, 10:49 AM
RE: The Torture Debate - Yes, yes with caveats, or no?
(08-07-2017 10:46 AM)epronovost Wrote:  
(08-07-2017 10:28 AM)adey67 Wrote:  The only problem with conventional interrogation is if the situation is time critical. Yes start with the conventional but in some circumstances it maybe necessary to move to the erm, more creative. Wink I don't believe conventional is always quicker, does anyone have any sources or citations ? It would be interesting to know for sure. The Israelis are rumoured to have achieved rapid success with waterboarding.

http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage?ha...&id=&page=

According to pretty much all studies in the field (of which the one above is a good sample), torture is worse than non-violent method of interrogation on pretty much all account including speed. Moving from non-violent to violent method is actually the worst idea you could have. It makes you work twice as much for just as little.

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/pac/20/4/590/

This little study also provide a good explanation as to why people think torture can be more efficient than non-violent method of interrogation. It's all linked to threat perception. People are implying a plus-value to torture when they feel personnaly threaten or when someone they are close to is personnaly threatened because humen are violent creatures. We deal with threats with violence even when its clearly not the right way to go.
Awesome I'll look forward to reading those thanks for that mate might get that different angle to look at after all.
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08-07-2017, 10:51 AM
RE: The Torture Debate - Yes, yes with caveats, or no?
(08-07-2017 10:47 AM)adey67 Wrote:  
(08-07-2017 10:33 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  And how do you know that being more creative will yield results instead of incoherent streams of word or lie? How will you make right with victim of "creativity" if there was mistake and innocent person was "interrogated"?
Well you'd have to be sure as you could and the situation would have to be mega dire with no other options available for the very reasons you guys pointed out. This is a hypothetical scenario hopefully never to be enacted my take on it is torture is unspeakably horrible but never say never under extraordinary circumstances.

Even being sure as you could be you still can be wrong. And you can untorture someone.

Torture is ineffective (look to Epronovost post above) and barbarous. I can see no circumstance in which it will be right.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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08-07-2017, 10:58 AM
RE: The Torture Debate - Yes, yes with caveats, or no?
(08-07-2017 10:51 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(08-07-2017 10:47 AM)adey67 Wrote:  Well you'd have to be sure as you could and the situation would have to be mega dire with no other options available for the very reasons you guys pointed out. This is a hypothetical scenario hopefully never to be enacted my take on it is torture is unspeakably horrible but never say never under extraordinary circumstances.

Even being sure as you could be you still can be wrong. And you can untorture someone.

Torture is ineffective (look to Epronovost post above) and barbarous. I can see no circumstance in which it will be right.

Yeah I really am playing devils advocate to a degree here but if its a million people dying in agony or one person tortured to prevent that, I know which I'd choose but personally I cant imagine a situation like that would actually occur, but its interesting to hypothesize.
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08-07-2017, 11:01 AM
RE: The Torture Debate - Yes, yes with caveats, or no?
(08-07-2017 10:58 AM)adey67 Wrote:  
(08-07-2017 10:51 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Even being sure as you could be you still can be wrong. And you can untorture someone.

Torture is ineffective (look to Epronovost post above) and barbarous. I can see no circumstance in which it will be right.

Yeah I really am playing devils advocate to a degree here but if its a million people dying in agony or one person tortured to prevent that, I know which I'd choose but personally I cant imagine a situation like that would actually occur, but its interesting to hypothesize.

I find nothing interesting in such imaginary situations. They're made to show how bad is person holding to his principles by inventing some extremely improbable shit. Torture is wrong and no billions of imaginary suffering people who can be relived from this suffering only by torture will change that.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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08-07-2017, 11:01 AM
RE: The Torture Debate - Yes, yes with caveats, or no?
(08-07-2017 10:58 AM)adey67 Wrote:  
(08-07-2017 10:51 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Even being sure as you could be you still can be wrong. And you can untorture someone.

Torture is ineffective (look to Epronovost post above) and barbarous. I can see no circumstance in which it will be right.

Yeah I really am playing devils advocate to a degree here but if its a million people dying in agony or one person tortured to prevent that, I know which I'd choose but personally I cant imagine a situation like that would actually occur, but its interesting to hypothesize.

Problem being, even in your never happened before 24-esq situation you get better results with honest detective work and normal interrogation that you do with torture. All data strongly points to the fact that torture is slower and produces more false positives than real police work.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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08-07-2017, 11:03 AM
RE: The Torture Debate - Yes, yes with caveats, or no?
(08-07-2017 11:01 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(08-07-2017 10:58 AM)adey67 Wrote:  Yeah I really am playing devils advocate to a degree here but if its a million people dying in agony or one person tortured to prevent that, I know which I'd choose but personally I cant imagine a situation like that would actually occur, but its interesting to hypothesize.

Problem being, even in your never happened before 24-esq situation you get better results with honest detective work and normal interrogation that you do with torture. All data strongly points to the fact that torture is slower and produces more false positives than real police work.

Ok, that's interesting to know I may have to reappraise my ideas.
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08-07-2017, 11:11 AM (This post was last modified: 08-07-2017 11:20 AM by adey67.)
RE: The Torture Debate - Yes, yes with caveats, or no?
(08-07-2017 11:01 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(08-07-2017 10:58 AM)adey67 Wrote:  Yeah I really am playing devils advocate to a degree here but if its a million people dying in agony or one person tortured to prevent that, I know which I'd choose but personally I cant imagine a situation like that would actually occur, but its interesting to hypothesize.

I find nothing interesting in such imaginary situations. They're made to show how bad is person holding to his principles by inventing some extremely improbable shit. Torture is wrong and no billions of imaginary suffering people who can be relived from this suffering only by torture will change that.

That was NOT my intention, and if you knew me I guarantee you would not have said such a thing, obviously this is a major hot button as it should be, but for some perhaps more so than others, I'm gonna bow out for the time being.
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