The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria is a irreducible complex system
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10-08-2015, 06:07 PM
The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria is a irreducible complex system
The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria requires a interdependent, interlocked, irreducible complex system and a advanced transport and communication system. This is pretty strong evidence that a planning intelligence is required to set it up.

A critically important macromolecule—arguably “second in importance only to DNA”—is ATP. As far as known, all organisms from the simplest bacteria to humans use ATP as their primary energy currency. ATP contains the purine base adenine and the sugar ribose which together form the nucleoside adenosine. Adenine is one of the most important organic molecules for life as we know it today. "Adenine synthesis is perhaps the best example of an irreducibly complex system that can be found in life ..." the process doesn't work unless all 11 enzymes are present.

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/...-cell#3825

Adenine would never accumulate in any kind of "prebiotic soup.

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/...helix#3435

In eukaryotes the mitochondria produce most of the cell’s ATP (anaerobic glycolysis also produces some)   The systems most frequently mentioned as irreducible complex, as the flagellum, have about 40 essential proteins.

ATP is only one of hundreds of thousands of essential molecules in eukaryotic cells. That makes the cell a hudge, enormous , unimaginable irreducible, interlocked, interdependent nano factory of incredible complexity.A few essential proteins and molecules are mentioned here :

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/...=essential

This list is supposed to grow upon further investigation. We know only four basic methods of producing ATP: in bacterial cell walls, in the cytoplasm by photosynthesis, in chloroplasts, and in mitochondria. No transitional forms exist to bridge these four methods by evolution. According to the concept of irreducible complexity, these ATP producing machines must have been manufactured as functioning units and they could not have evolved by Darwinism mechanisms. Anything less than an entire ATP molecule will not function and a manufacturing plant which is less than complete cannot produce a functioning ATP. Some believe that the field of biochemistry which has achieved this understanding has already falsified the Darwinian world view (Behe, 1996).  It certainly looks like the numerous enzymes and carrier proteins needed for cellular respiration demonstrates irreducible complexity. not only does there have to be enough of each of the enzymes and carrier proteins present but they must also work in the right order and be effective enough as well. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link and a machine is only as efficient as its slowest part. Given what we know about how life actually works and how easily it dies when it doesn't have enough energy, it is evident that for cellular respiration to have developed naturally within living organisms that could reproduce, would have required several simultaneous innovations. Some scientists have argued that the positions of intelligent design and irreducible complexity are arguments from ignorance which lack enough imagination. I would submit that the concerns put forth above are based, not on ignorance, but on what we actually do know about how life actually works and how easily it dies. Just as a car can die from not having enough gas for energy, or oil for seizing parts, or anti-freeze for engine overheating, so too, all physicians know that there are many different pathways to death. If you really want to begin to understand how life came into existence, you first have to understand how easily it can become non-existent.

[Image: fdsasd13.png]

The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria

Mitochondria are double-membrane-enclosed organelles. They specialize in ATP synthesis, using energy derived from electron transport and oxidative phosphorylation in mitochondria and from photosynthesis in chloroplasts . Although both organelles contain their own DNA, ribosomes, and other components required for protein synthesis, most of their proteins are encoded in the cell nucleus and imported from the cytosol.

If the endosymbiosis theory were true, would the proteins not keep being encoded and produced all inside mitochondria ?

Most organelle proteins are synthesized in the cytoplasm from nuclear encoded mRNAs. These proteins must be imported into mitochondria. Special sequences, called signal sequences, target the protein to its proper organelle. Organelles contain protein translocator complexes that are required for this transport.

Key players in this process are proteins, a signal sequence, chaperonins, ATP, protein translocator complexes, and signal peptidase.

In order for  proteins required inside of mitochondria being able to arrive at their destination, following is required :

All the machinery to synthesize mRNA's
Cytoplasm and the container of it ( the cell membrane )
the ribosome to make proteins
proteins
signal sequences
chaperonins
ATP,
protein translocator complexes required for the transport
signal peptidase
and the organelle ( the mitochondrion ) into which the protein is transported

if any of it is missing, nothing goes. That is a irreducible , interlocked and interdependent system, which indicates that all the organelles and machinery had to emerge simultaneously. A separate independent stepwise arise is not possible.

Proteins destined for transport into mitochondria contain a signal sequence. This sequence acts as a targeting mechanism to ensure the protein is delivered to the proper organelle.

Most signal-relay stations we know about were intelligently designed. Signal without recognition is meaningless.  Communication implies a signalling convention (a “coming together” or agreement in advance) that a given signal means or represents something: e.g., that S-O-S means “Send Help!”   The transmitter and receiver can be made of non-sentient materials, but the functional purpose of the system always comes from a mind.  The mind uses the material substances to perform an algorithm that is not itself a product of the materials or the blind forces acting on them.  Signal sequences may be composed of mindless matter, but they are marks of a mind behind the intelligent design.

In the mitochondrial electron-transport chain, six different cytochrome hemes, eight iron–sulfur clusters, three copper atoms, a flavin mononucleotide (another electron-transfer cofactor), and ubiquinone work in a defined sequence to carry electrons from NADH to O2. In total, this pathway involves more than 60 different polypeptides arranged in three large membrane protein complexes, each of which binds several of the above electron-carrying cofactors.

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/...drion#3818

Beside specially ATP synthase, a nanomotor par excellence

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/...p-synthase

and NADH dehydrogenase ( Complex I ) Visualize an old locomotive train roaring down the tracks.  One of the characteristic images that surely comes to mind is the oscillating motion of the coupling rods on the wheels.  The long rods that connected the wheels provided a way to convert heat energy from the steam into mechanical energy. It now appears that the we have  trillions of mechanical devices similar like those coupling rods.  They serve to transmit the energy in the food we eat into mechanical energy, driving a proton pump inside the mitochondrion.  It’s all part of an amazing series of electromechanical machines in the powerhouses of the cell. A special type of „transmission element“, which is not known from any other protein, appears to be responsible for the energy transduction within the complex by mechanical nanoscale coupling. Transferred to the technical world, this could be described as a power transmission by a coupling rod, which connects for instance the wheels of a steam train.

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/...tochondria

Did life really come about solely by random chemicals coming together to form cells, then simple organisms, and then complex ones like us? In other words, without a mind at work to make it happen? Do you think that the over twenty different enzymes and carrier proteins, each consisting of over 300 amino acids, just happened to come together in a specific pathway, called cellular respiration, to provide our cells with the energy they need to live? No, when it comes to the origin of life it seems to me that Science still has a lot of explaining to do. Meanwhile, as we wait for evolutionary biologists to admit the deficiencies within their theory, our children and the whole world continue to be misled!

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/...port-chain
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10-08-2015, 06:12 PM
RE: The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria requires a interdependent, interlocked, i
Otherwise busy.

Oh look! It's anothey "We don't know everything. ... there fore god dun it." copy-paste spam seeming posts.

I hope GwG and Meta have some free time to come post so I can actually learn something. Tongue
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10-08-2015, 06:14 PM
RE: The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria is a irreducible complex system
Guess I'm excluded. Fine, if that's how you want it. Tongue

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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10-08-2015, 06:43 PM (This post was last modified: 10-08-2015 06:48 PM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria is a irreducible complex system
*yawn* More of the old, tired Machine Gun Tactic™, from the Creationist lie-factory, the Discovery Institute®.

"Just fire round after round at the Evolutionists, boys, and don't listen to the answers... when they miss one or don't answer you anymore, just accuse 'em of not being ABLE to answer you, and ol' Average Joe™ will think that we won!"


Ah, screw it, I'll bite:

For those who actually might be curious about the evolution of ATP, it's well-understood, the hand-waving of the God's Army Wizards of Illusion-Magic's protestations aside. There are many university-level articles you can read, from publishing academics, or you can look into the National Institutes of Health's publications or the primary literature in scientific journals on the subject:

From the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign:
http://www.life.illinois.edu/crofts/biop...ect10.html

Or, from the primary literature, the Journal of the American Chemical Society, a lovely article on how it's likely the initial use of ATP as a molecule got started, early in evolutionary history, before the Synthase method evolved:
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ja066103k

From Nature, the greatest of all biological primary journals:
http://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage...s-14373960

And, of course, the NIH:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25188293

Edit to Add: No, I won't be addressing the other bullets fired from the Creationist machinegun, because the tactic genuinely pisses me off. I only answered the first one because I wanted to prevent any passers-by from thinking we're afraid of the dishonest little Creationist shits. It's one of the ways I know there's no God... people who spend so much time MAKING FREAKIN' GRAPHICS/DIAGRAMS in order to LIE in the name of God, yet don't get struck down for speaking such awful blasphemy against the one who created it (assuming for a second that there is a Creator who made the universe, and actually cares about what It did) by slandering the means in which it was done through simply making shit up. Shame on you, dude. Shame, shame, shame!

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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10-08-2015, 07:07 PM
RE: The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria is a irreducible complex system
I'd recommend you look into the concept of scaffolding.
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10-08-2015, 08:06 PM
RE: The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria is a irreducible complex system
(10-08-2015 06:43 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  For those who actually might be curious about the evolution of ATP, it's well-understood, the hand-waving of the God's Army Wizards of Illusion-Magic's protestations aside. There are many university-level articles you can read, from publishing academics, or you can look into the National Institutes of Health's publications or the primary literature in scientific journals on the subject:

yep......Thumbsup

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/...-life#3361

The improbability of prebiotic nucleic acid synthesis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6462692

Many accounts of the origin of life assume that the spontaneous synthesis of a self-replicating nucleic acid could take place readily. Serious chemical obstacles exist, however, which make such an event extremely improbable. Prebiotic syntheses of adenine from HCN, of D,L-ribose from adenosine, and of adenosine from adenine and D-ribose have in fact been demonstrated. However these procedures use pure starting materials, afford poor yields, and are run under conditions which are not compatible with one another. Any nucleic acid components which were formed on the primitive earth would tend to hydrolyze by a number of pathways. Their polymerization would be inhibited by the presence of vast numbers of related substances which would react preferentially with them. It appears likely that nucleic acids were not formed by prebiotic routes

but i did not mention ribose, also essential for ATP synthesis.

The proposed prebiotic pathway leading to this sugar, the formose reaction, is especially problematic.

prebiotically plausible sequences of steps to the precursors of this ribose derivative and from it to the standard nucleotides are not obvious. 17

Formose reaction

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formose_reaction

The formose reaction is of great importance to the question of the origin of life as it explains part of the path from simple formaldehyde to complex sugars like ribose and from there to RNA. In one experiment simulating early Earth conditions, pentoses formed from mixtures of formaldehyde, glyceraldehyde, and borate minerals such as colemanite (Ca2B6O115H2O) or kernite (Na2B4O7).[4] Both formaldehyde and glycolaldehyde have been observed spectroscopically in outer space, making the formose reaction of particular interest to the field of astrobiology.

Aldol reaction

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldol_reaction

The aldol reaction is a means of forming carbon–carbon bonds in organic chemistry.Discovered independently by Charles-Adolphe Wurtz and Alexander Borodin in 1872, the reaction combines two carbonyl compounds (the original experiments used aldehydes) to form a new β-hydroxy carbonyl compound. These products are known as aldols, from the aldehyde + alcohol, a structural motif seen in many of the products. Aldol structural units are found in many important molecules, whether naturally occurring or synthetic. For example, the aldol reaction has been used in the large-scale production of the commodity chemical pentaerythritol[11] and the synthesis of the heart disease drug Lipitor (atorvastatin, calcium salt).

and aldose-ketose isomerizations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobry_de_B...sformation

In carbohydrate chemistry, the Lobry de Bruyn–van Ekenstein transformation also known as the Lobry de Bruyn–Alberda–van Ekenstein transformation is the base or acid catalyzed transformation of an aldose into the ketose isomer or vice versa, with a tautomeric enediol as reaction intermediate. Ketoses may be transformed into 3-ketoses, etcetera. The enediol is also an intermediate for the epimerization of an aldose or ketose.

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/...r-the-cell

Now that scientists understand how some of these highly organized molecules function and why they are required for life, their origin must be explained. We know only four basic methods of producing ATP: in bacterial cell walls, in the cytoplasm by photosynthesis, in chloroplasts, and in mitochondria. No transitional forms exist to bridge these four methods by evolution. According to the concept of irreducible complexity, these ATP producing machines must have been manufactured as functioning units and they could not have evolved by Darwinism mechanisms. Anything less than an entire ATP molecule will not function and a manufacturing plant which is less than complete cannot produce a functioning ATP. Some believe that the field of biochemistry which has achieved this understanding has already falsified the Darwinian world view (Behe, 1996).

Laugh out load

Bowing
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10-08-2015, 08:12 PM
RE: The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria is a irreducible complex system
You really like quote-mining that word, "problematic", you dishonest little shits. It clearly means something different to you than it does to the scientifically-literate, since when you see the word in science papers, you can pretty much guarantee two things are about to occur:

1) The scientists says, "this is problematic, but..." and then goes on to explain what we know and/or think about the solution to that problem, and how their experiments either illuminate new paths to explore a solution or proved what the solution turned out to be.

2) The creationists will immediately turn the comma into a period: "this is problematic."

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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10-08-2015, 08:12 PM (This post was last modified: 10-08-2015 08:18 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria is a irreducible complex system
(10-08-2015 08:06 PM)Godexists Wrote:  
(10-08-2015 06:43 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  For those who actually might be curious about the evolution of ATP, it's well-understood, the hand-waving of the God's Army Wizards of Illusion-Magic's protestations aside. There are many university-level articles you can read, from publishing academics, or you can look into the National Institutes of Health's publications or the primary literature in scientific journals on the subject:

yep......Thumbsup

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/...-life#3361

The improbability of prebiotic nucleic acid synthesis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6462692

Many accounts of the origin of life assume that the spontaneous synthesis of a self-replicating nucleic acid could take place readily. Serious chemical obstacles exist, however, which make such an event extremely improbable. Prebiotic syntheses of adenine from HCN, of D,L-ribose from adenosine, and of adenosine from adenine and D-ribose have in fact been demonstrated. However these procedures use pure starting materials, afford poor yields, and are run under conditions which are not compatible with one another. Any nucleic acid components which were formed on the primitive earth would tend to hydrolyze by a number of pathways. Their polymerization would be inhibited by the presence of vast numbers of related substances which would react preferentially with them. It appears likely that nucleic acids were not formed by prebiotic routes

but i did not mention ribose, also essential for ATP synthesis.

The proposed prebiotic pathway leading to this sugar, the formose reaction, is especially problematic.

prebiotically plausible sequences of steps to the precursors of this ribose derivative and from it to the standard nucleotides are not obvious. 17

Formose reaction

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formose_reaction

The formose reaction is of great importance to the question of the origin of life as it explains part of the path from simple formaldehyde to complex sugars like ribose and from there to RNA. In one experiment simulating early Earth conditions, pentoses formed from mixtures of formaldehyde, glyceraldehyde, and borate minerals such as colemanite (Ca2B6O115H2O) or kernite (Na2B4O7).[4] Both formaldehyde and glycolaldehyde have been observed spectroscopically in outer space, making the formose reaction of particular interest to the field of astrobiology.

Aldol reaction

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldol_reaction

The aldol reaction is a means of forming carbon–carbon bonds in organic chemistry.Discovered independently by Charles-Adolphe Wurtz and Alexander Borodin in 1872, the reaction combines two carbonyl compounds (the original experiments used aldehydes) to form a new β-hydroxy carbonyl compound. These products are known as aldols, from the aldehyde + alcohol, a structural motif seen in many of the products. Aldol structural units are found in many important molecules, whether naturally occurring or synthetic. For example, the aldol reaction has been used in the large-scale production of the commodity chemical pentaerythritol[11] and the synthesis of the heart disease drug Lipitor (atorvastatin, calcium salt).

and aldose-ketose isomerizations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobry_de_B...sformation

In carbohydrate chemistry, the Lobry de Bruyn–van Ekenstein transformation also known as the Lobry de Bruyn–Alberda–van Ekenstein transformation is the base or acid catalyzed transformation of an aldose into the ketose isomer or vice versa, with a tautomeric enediol as reaction intermediate. Ketoses may be transformed into 3-ketoses, etcetera. The enediol is also an intermediate for the epimerization of an aldose or ketose.

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/...r-the-cell

Now that scientists understand how some of these highly organized molecules function and why they are required for life, their origin must be explained. We know only four basic methods of producing ATP: in bacterial cell walls, in the cytoplasm by photosynthesis, in chloroplasts, and in mitochondria. No transitional forms exist to bridge these four methods by evolution. According to the concept of irreducible complexity, these ATP producing machines must have been manufactured as functioning units and they could not have evolved by Darwinism mechanisms. Anything less than an entire ATP molecule will not function and a manufacturing plant which is less than complete cannot produce a functioning ATP. Some believe that the field of biochemistry which has achieved this understanding has already falsified the Darwinian world view (Behe, 1996).

Laugh out load

Bowing

Behe
Laugh out load
Weeping

Michael Behe admits ID is religious, not science, speculation, not theory in an
article by 'Die zeit', a prestigious and highly reliable German weekly:
http://www.zeit.de/2005/44/Harrisburg?page=all





Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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10-08-2015, 08:13 PM
RE: The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria is a irreducible complex system
And for fuck's sake, are you really citing Behe 1996? That's Darwin's Black Box, a book that not only got him ridiculed, but which about a hundred grad student teams set about demonstrating that each one of his IC systems was bullshit. And that was back when I was in college nearly 20 years ago!

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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10-08-2015, 08:19 PM
RE: The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria is a irreducible complex system
The PubMed article he quoted is from 1984... the year before we had even invented the Polymerase Chain Reaction (PCR) which allows for RNA to be rapidly scanned!

Orig Life. 1984;14(1-4):565-70.
The improbability of prebiotic nucleic acid synthesis.
Shapiro R.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6462692

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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