The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria is a irreducible complex system
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
12-08-2015, 06:40 PM (This post was last modified: 12-08-2015 06:46 PM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria is a irreducible complex system
What an excellent example you cited, in Dr. Francis S. Collins!

Collins is indeed an evangelical Christian, and while he does believe in the teleological argument for the First Mover to have created the conditions of the universe that allowed the Big Bang to happen, he states quite clearly that not only is the Big Bang a real thing, and the natural formation of the universe/galaxies/planets/life, he wrote an entire book spelling out why you're an idiot if you reject the above natural causes.

He refers to DNA as "the language of God", because he finds evolution by natural selection to be the mechanism of Creation, and thus what we find in the DNA to be "discovering the fingerprints of the Creator". I own this book.

You should too, apparently.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Language-God-S...1416542744


[Image: The_Language_of_God-Collins.jpg]

Edit to Add: Oh, I also own Decoding the Language of God, by George Cunningham, which shreds most of Collins' arguments from science in favor of supporting a theistic view from those data. But I reference Collins because he quite clearly demonstrates, in laymans' terms even a theist can grasp, why genetics shows the arguments in favor of "God-Magic" as being necessary for life, and Creationism in general, are idiotic.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes RocketSurgeon76's post
12-08-2015, 06:50 PM
RE: The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria is a irreducible complex system
(12-08-2015 04:37 PM)Godexists Wrote:  Limited causal alternatives for origins

This is both irrelevant and fallacious on multiple levels.

As I mentioned before, it is not even known - and I personally think it highly unlikely - that a causal explanation for the origin of the universe is possible, as you cannot have causal relationships outside of a space-time framework. Asking what the cause of the space-time framework's origin was is a nonsense question.

It is also irrelevant whether or not we currently have any alternative explanations at the current time. "A wizard did it" is still not a logical explanation, and it inevitably falls back on the special pleading fallacy whenever someone asks what the wizard's origins were anyway.

Even if we knew for certain that the universe did have to have a direct cause, and even if we had absolutely no scientific way of analyzing what this cause might be - neither of which is true in this case - "god did it" would still be an irrational statement.

(12-08-2015 04:37 PM)Godexists Wrote:  Its not justified to claim " we don't know ", when a limited range of alternatives and options are available. In regard our our existence, there are just and exactly 3, namely:

chance
design
physical necessity.

Well, no. Those aren't the only options. Again, you seem to forget that we are, by definition, dealing with a hypothetical scenario in which causal relationships do not exist. There isn't necessarily a cause at all.

(12-08-2015 04:37 PM)Godexists Wrote:  since chance, and physical necessity won't cut the cake

And then you attempt to sweep two of the other options under the rug with a blatantly transparent wave of the hand. I'm afraid that isn't going to fly.

Why do chance and physical necessity not work, GE? Explain yourself. Formulate an argument. Don't just try to ignore things that are inconvenient to your worldview.

(12-08-2015 04:37 PM)Godexists Wrote:  Now here's the trick. When faced with limited options you don't have the liberty not to believe something. If you reject the idea that somebody baked the cake for you, you must assert in its place that the cake either materialized out of nothing or formed itself by accident. When you reject one option you are asserting an alternate option when all the options are clear.

Do you see that? When you are faced with just a limited number of choices, if you reject one choice you've got to opt for one of those that remains. So the question is, which option makes most sense?

Well, given that one of them requires the existence of causal relationships in a scenario in which causal relationships cannot exist, as well as suffers from the special pleading fallacy and non sequitur, while the other does not, I think the choice is relatively clear.

Failed analogies will not get you far here, I'm afraid. Your hypothetical scenario just says "all the evidence points one way, but you persist in saying it happened by magic", which is exactly the opposite of what is happening here. There is currently no evidence available on what conditions were like before the Big Bang - in fact, one of the defining principles of modern Big Bang theories is that there cannot be any evidence, since coherent information could not have survived the crush of the singularity.

The only thing that we have to go on is our knowledge of what the universe is like after the Big Bang, which indicates that causal relationships only exist under the framework of time. Remove time, and causal relationships not only do not but cannot exist, since they are defined by one event's position relative to the other in time. So literally the only piece of evidence that we have - quite possibly the only piece of evidence that we ever could have - indicates that the universe cannot have had a cause.

So you construct a straw man about someone ignoring the evidence and drawing a completely nonsensical conclusion, then accuse us of making the same mistake. I'm afraid that I have bad news.

That is what you are doing.

(12-08-2015 04:37 PM)Godexists Wrote:  Because the existence of God is a massively important topic, we cannot afford not to pay attention... The person who says, “I do not know if God exists,” may have chosen to live by diversions and distractions and thus to ignore God. This is not an innocent ignorance; this ignorance is the result of our neglecting our duty.

So the theist, atheist, and militant (ornery) agnostic all bear a burden of proof; the theist does not have a heavier burden since all claim to know something.

You don't understand what "burden of proof" means, do you?

No, don't answer that. I know you don't, because you just posted that tripe and expected it to be taken seriously. Please, do some reading on the circular logic and burden of proof fallacies. It will save us all a lot of time.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Unbeliever's post
12-08-2015, 09:32 PM
RE: The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria is a irreducible complex system
And again, your wrong teleological nonsense doesn't show how a particular god is implied by this argument, WHICH GOD ARE YOU ARGUING FOR?

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes TheInquisition's post
12-08-2015, 09:51 PM (This post was last modified: 12-08-2015 10:05 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria is a irreducible complex system
(12-08-2015 04:37 PM)Godexists Wrote:  In regard our our existence, there are just and exactly 3, namely:

chance
design
physical necessity.

since chance, and physical necessity won't cut the cake, the best explanation for our existence is design.

Saying there are only three without explaining why the billions of other possibilities are ruled out doesn't cut the cake.
This sort of idiotic nonsense may fly where you come from, goddoesnotexist, but we are not as stupid as the usual readers of your crappy website.
Why can't your deity find someone who knows what they're talking about or how to argue effectively. I mean really. How many converts have you convinced ?
Oh. None. Jebus no likey piss-poor preachers.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-08-2015, 01:00 AM
RE: The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria is a irreducible complex system
(12-08-2015 10:32 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(12-08-2015 10:13 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  As much as Godexists' "arguments" are completely without merit, I agree with him on this point.

This is just getting silly. If you want to measure 'em, do it somewhere else.

Rolleyes Lemme know when Dickface or other Dickface says something interesting then...

I forgive you for insulting me.

Also just another example of an atheist framing his argument(if you can call it that) around insults.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-08-2015, 01:01 AM
RE: The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria is a irreducible complex system
(12-08-2015 02:15 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(12-08-2015 05:27 AM)Godexists Wrote:  HOW ABOUT YOU PLAY KINDERGARDEN SOMEWHERE ELSE, AND STOP HIJACKING MY TOPIC WITH EXCHANGE OF PERSONAL INSULTS ?

Oh really ? Have you contributed to TTA ? It's not "your topic" The only reason you posted it here, is to preach at us, idiot. Creationism is the playground of fools.

Go fuck yourself, and take your idiotic non-scientific spam-garbage somewhere else.

And I mean that in the most charitable way possible. Tongue

Another example of atheists engaging in insults instead of reasoned discussion.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-08-2015, 01:11 AM
RE: The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria is a irreducible complex system
(13-08-2015 01:00 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(12-08-2015 10:32 AM)morondog Wrote:  Rolleyes Lemme know when Dickface or other Dickface says something interesting then...

I forgive you for insulting me.

Also just another example of an atheist framing his argument(if you can call it that) around insults.

Evidence for God? Oh, I see you have none. Therefore you must be all prissy, and try to make out that you *would* present your evidence if *only* those dastardly atheists would stop *insulting* your fragile and delicate self.

Pull the other one, dickhead, it's got bells on.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-08-2015, 01:17 AM
RE: The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria is a irreducible complex system
(13-08-2015 01:11 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(13-08-2015 01:00 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I forgive you for insulting me.

Also just another example of an atheist framing his argument(if you can call it that) around insults.

Evidence for God? Oh, I see you have none. Therefore you must be all prissy, and try to make out that you *would* present your evidence if *only* those dastardly atheists would stop *insulting* your fragile and delicate self.

Pull the other one, dickhead, it's got bells on.

I forgive you for calling me a dickhead.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-08-2015, 05:55 AM
RE: The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria is a irreducible complex system
(12-08-2015 01:01 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  For the record, as much as Heywood is being immature, I do agree that the personal attacks - from everyone - are unnecessary.

Sometimes I'd like to punch a motherfucker in the eye socket. Consider

IC is looking at a door in a doorframe, thinking there ain't no wood.

living word
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes houseofcantor's post
13-08-2015, 06:30 AM
RE: The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria is a irreducible complex system
(13-08-2015 01:17 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(13-08-2015 01:11 AM)morondog Wrote:  Evidence for God? Oh, I see you have none. Therefore you must be all prissy, and try to make out that you *would* present your evidence if *only* those dastardly atheists would stop *insulting* your fragile and delicate self.

Pull the other one, dickhead, it's got bells on.

I forgive you for calling me a dickhead.

Quote:"Since 08-01-2015 I have forgiven 62 unprovoked insults directed at me in this forum. In each case, I just turned the other cheek at let it go."

Constantly pointing out your own righteousness is not "turning the other cheek and letting it go" you passive aggressive mother-fucking liar, but if by "turning the other cheek" you mean demonstrating what an ass you are, I would have to agree with that. Big Grin

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Bucky Ball's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: