The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria is a irreducible complex system
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11-08-2015, 12:34 PM
RE: The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria is a irreducible complex system
(11-08-2015 11:46 AM)Godexists Wrote:  
(11-08-2015 12:45 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Godexist,

I believe it has been hypothesized that mitochondria came into existence when one bacteria "swallowed" another. Instead of the larger one "digesting" the smaller one, they formed a symbiotic relationship. This may have been a freakish event that happened only once in the observable universe, but opened the door to the evolution of complex life on this planet.

That could be one pathway.

That could be one pathway. But i think, rather NOT.

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/...ochondrion

Mammalian mtDNA only encodes 13 proteins, but these are nevertheless essential for cell viability as they are crucial components of the oxidative phosphorylation system, located in the inner mitochondrial membrane

All of the proteins required for mtDNA maintenance and expression are encoded by the nuclear genome and have to be imported into mitochondria after synthesis in the cytosol. Therefore, it is clear that a coordinated action between the two cellular genomes is required to regulate oxidative phosphorylation capacity in response to physiological demand and disease states

That makes it pretty clear, that is a interdependent and interlocked system, so one more clear evidence that the endosymbiosis theory is nonsense. It makes it also clear, that both, the nucleus, all of the proteins required for mtDNA maintenance and expression, the DNA that encodes for these proteins, the import machinery, the cytosol, the cell membrane, and mitochondria had to emerge at the same time. A stepwise evolutionary and gradual emergence  is impossible.


http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/...tochondria

Multisubunit protein complexes that function as protein translocators mediate protein movement across mitochondrial membranes. The TOM complex transfers proteins across the outer membrane, and two TIM complexes (TIM23 and TIM22) transfer proteins across the inner membrane

These complexes contain some components that act as receptors for mitochondrial precursor proteins, and other components that form the translocation channels. The TOM complex is required for the import of all nucleus-encoded mitochondrial proteins.

This is another reason why the endosymbiosis theory makes no sense. The mechanism of synthesis of all proteins INSIDE the bacteria would change, and a new mechanism where the proteins are synthesised in the nucleus would have to emerge. And so the import mechanism with all related proteins and signalling mechanisms. Not a easy task.

It initially transports their signal sequences into the intermembrane space and helps to insert transmembrane proteins into the outer membrane. β-barrel proteins, which are particularly abundant in the outer membrane, are then passed on to an additional translocator, the SAM complex, which helps them to fold properly in the outer membrane. The TIM23 complex transports some soluble proteins into the matrix space and helps to insert transmembrane proteins into the inner membrane. The TIM22 complex mediates the insertion of a subclass of inner membrane proteins, including the transporter that moves ADP, ATP, and phosphate in and out of mitochondria.

This strongly suggests that the whole mechanism, and so the proteins, had to emerge all at once, and be fully operational right from the start. How did the TIM23 complex " learn " how to transport the soluble proteins into the matrix space, and help to insert transmembrane proteins into the inner membrane ? trial and error ?

Yet another protein translocator in the inner mitochondrial membrane, the OXA complex, mediates the insertion of those inner membrane proteins that are synthesized within mitochondria. It also helps to insert some imported inner membrane proteins that are initially transported into the matrix space by the other complexes

Only 13 proteins necessary for a mitochondrion are actually coded in mitochondrial DNA. The vast majority of proteins destined for the mitochondria are encoded in the nucleus and synthesized in the cytoplasm. These are tagged by an N-terminal signal sequence. Following transport through the cytosol from the nucleus, the signal sequence is recognized by a receptor protein in the transporter outer membrane (TOM) complex. 1

This reinforces the evidence that the endosymbiosis theory is false.

[Image: etrrtt11.png]

Thats what precisely was to be expected: some wishy washy pseudo scientific speculation about " proto " mitochondrion, and a primitive setup of protein translocases. The problem with this line of reasoning is always, its baseless speculation , where words like " might be ", " it has been suggested ", " would have ", " demonstrates the feasability " are nothing else than assertions without a shred of evidence, just in order to provide a framework, where the evolutionary paradigm might fit. Thats not science. Thats pseudo science at its best.

Please don't post in green, it makes it look like admin edited your post.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-08-2015, 02:12 PM
RE: The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria is a irreducible complex system



Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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11-08-2015, 05:14 PM
RE: The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria is a irreducible complex system
(11-08-2015 11:46 AM)Godexists Wrote:  That could be one pathway. But i think, rather NOT.

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/...ochondrion

Mammalian mtDNA only encodes 13 proteins, but these are nevertheless essential for cell viability as they are crucial components of the oxidative phosphorylation system, located in the inner mitochondrial membrane

Please refrain from posting walls of copied texts from other sites. Providing a link and brief quotes of summarized passages is enough.

Anti-spam quibbling aside, I very much doubt that you actually understood any of that. This is a fairly straightforward and blatant attempt to swamp any opposing viewpoints under a wall of impressive-sounding words, rather than an actual, scientifically-grounded objection to the theory.

The theory of symbiogenesis deals with primitive prokaryotes. It does not deal with what those prokaryotes became millions of years in the future, as your "objection" does. The mechanisms within mammalian cells are quite different from those found within prokaryotic organisms, because they have been altered by thousands of years of evolution.

All that your wall of text boils down to is the simple statement that removing part of the mitochondria's mechanisms damages it irreparably, which surprises no one. This mechanism did not necessarily exist in the same state - or at all - during the early stages of eukaryotic life. It certainly doesn't show that symbiogenesis is false, or even particularly unlikely.

Removing a piece of a car's engine and claiming that the engine is irreducibly complexible when it fails to work afterwards is not a particularly compelling argument.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
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11-08-2015, 05:44 PM
RE: The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria is a irreducible complex system
(11-08-2015 11:46 AM)Godexists Wrote:  
(11-08-2015 12:45 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Godexist,

I believe it has been hypothesized that mitochondria came into existence when one bacteria "swallowed" another. Instead of the larger one "digesting" the smaller one, they formed a symbiotic relationship. This may have been a freakish event that happened only once in the observable universe, but opened the door to the evolution of complex life on this planet.

That could be one pathway.

That could be one pathway. But i think, rather NOT.

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/...ochondrion

Mammalian mtDNA only encodes 13 proteins, but these are nevertheless essential for cell viability as they are crucial components of the oxidative phosphorylation system, located in the inner mitochondrial membrane

All of the proteins required for mtDNA maintenance and expression are encoded by the nuclear genome and have to be imported into mitochondria after synthesis in the cytosol. Therefore, it is clear that a coordinated action between the two cellular genomes is required to regulate oxidative phosphorylation capacity in response to physiological demand and disease states

That makes it pretty clear, that is a interdependent and interlocked system, so one more clear evidence that the endosymbiosis theory is nonsense. It makes it also clear, that both, the nucleus, all of the proteins required for mtDNA maintenance and expression, the DNA that encodes for these proteins, the import machinery, the cytosol, the cell membrane, and mitochondria had to emerge at the same time. A stepwise evolutionary and gradual emergence  is impossible.


http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/...tochondria

Multisubunit protein complexes that function as protein translocators mediate protein movement across mitochondrial membranes. The TOM complex transfers proteins across the outer membrane, and two TIM complexes (TIM23 and TIM22) transfer proteins across the inner membrane

These complexes contain some components that act as receptors for mitochondrial precursor proteins, and other components that form the translocation channels. The TOM complex is required for the import of all nucleus-encoded mitochondrial proteins.

This is another reason why the endosymbiosis theory makes no sense. The mechanism of synthesis of all proteins INSIDE the bacteria would change, and a new mechanism where the proteins are synthesised in the nucleus would have to emerge. And so the import mechanism with all related proteins and signalling mechanisms. Not a easy task.

It initially transports their signal sequences into the intermembrane space and helps to insert transmembrane proteins into the outer membrane. β-barrel proteins, which are particularly abundant in the outer membrane, are then passed on to an additional translocator, the SAM complex, which helps them to fold properly in the outer membrane. The TIM23 complex transports some soluble proteins into the matrix space and helps to insert transmembrane proteins into the inner membrane. The TIM22 complex mediates the insertion of a subclass of inner membrane proteins, including the transporter that moves ADP, ATP, and phosphate in and out of mitochondria.

This strongly suggests that the whole mechanism, and so the proteins, had to emerge all at once, and be fully operational right from the start. How did the TIM23 complex " learn " how to transport the soluble proteins into the matrix space, and help to insert transmembrane proteins into the inner membrane ? trial and error ?

Yet another protein translocator in the inner mitochondrial membrane, the OXA complex, mediates the insertion of those inner membrane proteins that are synthesized within mitochondria. It also helps to insert some imported inner membrane proteins that are initially transported into the matrix space by the other complexes

Only 13 proteins necessary for a mitochondrion are actually coded in mitochondrial DNA. The vast majority of proteins destined for the mitochondria are encoded in the nucleus and synthesized in the cytoplasm. These are tagged by an N-terminal signal sequence. Following transport through the cytosol from the nucleus, the signal sequence is recognized by a receptor protein in the transporter outer membrane (TOM) complex. 1

This reinforces the evidence that the endosymbiosis theory is false.

[Image: etrrtt11.png]

Thats what precisely was to be expected: some wishy washy pseudo scientific speculation about " proto " mitochondrion, and a primitive setup of protein translocases. The problem with this line of reasoning is always, its baseless speculation , where words like " might be ", " it has been suggested ", " would have ", " demonstrates the feasability " are nothing else than assertions without a shred of evidence, just in order to provide a framework, where the evolutionary paradigm might fit. Thats not science. Thats pseudo science at its best.


Why must you always resort to using Heaven forums? Does it ever occur to you odd that actual scientific websites NEVER agree with your fantasy site?

Hhhmmm why would that be I wonder? I can answer, because they make stuff up.
In hospitals they use real science.

You are presenting us with more lies and expecting us to fall for it. This wont happen here. We actually have experts in the field posting here. Each of whom has dismissed your pseudo science.

And please stop spamming us with entire pages of nonsense.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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11-08-2015, 08:17 PM
RE: The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria is a irreducible complex system
(11-08-2015 05:14 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(11-08-2015 11:46 AM)Godexists Wrote:  That could be one pathway. But i think, rather NOT.

http://reasonandscience.heavenforum.org/...ochondrion

Mammalian mtDNA only encodes 13 proteins, but these are nevertheless essential for cell viability as they are crucial components of the oxidative phosphorylation system, located in the inner mitochondrial membrane

Please refrain from posting walls of copied texts from other sites. Providing a link and brief quotes of summarized passages is enough.

Anti-spam quibbling aside, I very much doubt that you actually understood any of that. This is a fairly straightforward and blatant attempt to swamp any opposing viewpoints under a wall of impressive-sounding words, rather than an actual, scientifically-grounded objection to the theory.

The theory of symbiogenesis deals with primitive prokaryotes. It does not deal with what those prokaryotes became millions of years in the future, as your "objection" does. The mechanisms within mammalian cells are quite different from those found within prokaryotic organisms, because they have been altered by thousands of years of evolution.

All that your wall of text boils down to is the simple statement that removing part of the mitochondria's mechanisms damages it irreparably, which surprises no one. This mechanism did not necessarily exist in the same state - or at all - during the early stages of eukaryotic life. It certainly doesn't show that symbiogenesis is false, or even particularly unlikely.

Removing a piece of a car's engine and claiming that the engine is irreducibly complexible when it fails to work afterwards is not a particularly compelling argument.

It was very evident weeks ago, that he doesn't really get any of the chemistry involved, and can only copy-paste. He can't even begin to discuss the details of the reactions, or the Biochemistry, or the precursors to life.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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11-08-2015, 09:06 PM
RE: The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria is a irreducible complex system
(11-08-2015 08:17 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  It was very evident weeks ago, that he doesn't really get any of the chemistry involved, and can only copy-paste. He can't even begin to discuss the details of the reactions, or the Biochemistry, or the precursors to life.

Or an explanation as to why organic compounds/molecules are being found all over the place.. generally in places where life has so far yet to be found. Tongue

I.E. Titan's atmosphere, Comets, Clouds of interstellar dust... to name a few.
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11-08-2015, 09:13 PM
RE: The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria is a irreducible complex system
(11-08-2015 05:44 PM)Banjo Wrote:  Why must you always resort to using Heaven forums? Does it ever occur to you odd that actual scientific websites NEVER agree with your fantasy site?

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11-08-2015, 09:16 PM
RE: The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria is a irreducible complex system
(11-08-2015 08:17 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  It was very evident weeks ago, that he doesn't really get any of the chemistry involved, and can only copy-paste. He can't even begin to discuss the details of the reactions, or the Biochemistry, or the precursors to life.

I don't need to understand any of the shit he posts about to know he's dodgy. He doesn't post links to published papers. If his arguments were so compelling that actual experts in the field could be convinced he would have published papers himself. I don't even know if Behe has published anything of merit on this topic? So what it amounts to is that the only audience he feels comfortable attempting to fleece, are non-experts. That's easily identifiable charlatan behaviour right there. Also lying for Jesus behaviour.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-08-2015, 11:35 PM
RE: The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria is a irreducible complex system
(11-08-2015 08:17 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  It was very evident weeks ago, that he doesn't really get any of the chemistry involved, and can only copy-paste. He can't even begin to discuss the details of the reactions, or the Biochemistry, or the precursors to life.

Yes, I thought so.

There's something to be said for being willing to admit your own ignorance and instead turning to experts on the subject, but simply pasting multiple pages' worth of text from another site is just not going to fly.

I've been gone for... oh, probably a few years now, and I very much doubt that I still retain my administrator privileges, but I don't think that the forum rules have changed that much. If he does it again, it's going to result in, at the very least, a report.

I would add a few comments about how posting arguments you can't actually interpret on a topic you don't understand is unlikely to change anyone's mind, but I think that is already fairly obvious to everyone present.

(11-08-2015 09:06 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Or an explanation as to why organic compounds/molecules are being found all over the place.. generally in places where life has so far yet to be found. Tongue

I.E. Titan's atmosphere, Comets, Clouds of interstellar dust... to name a few.

Quite.

And it's not even as though there's anything particularly mysterious about how these organic compounds form. The conditions are rare and delicate, but there's no magic involved. Chemistry operates under the same principles no matter where in the universe you are.

Bluntly, there just isn't anything about life, on a chemical level, that we don't understand - broadly speaking, at least. There are still plenty of finer details that need to be worked out, but that is due to the fact that living organisms are complicated, not that they are magical. It's a matter of practical, rather than theoretical, limitations.

All arguments like Godexists' (or, at least, his representative at HeavenForums) are is someone looking at a place where one of the fine details isn't perfectly worked out yet and saying that, because we don't know yet, we never will, and therefore a wizard did it. It's completely fallacious and ignores absolutely everything about chemistry, biology, and pretty much every other field of science.

That, or it's just them completely failing to understand anything that the theory they're attempting to criticize actually says.

Most often, it's the latter.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
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11-08-2015, 11:43 PM
RE: The Transport of Proteins into Mitochondria is a irreducible complex system
You know I feel like in reality this is simple, but humans are primitive so even simple things can look complex to them.

[Image: Guilmon-41189.gif] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOW_Ioi2wtuPa88FvBmnBgQ my youtube
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