The True Costs of Not Vaccinating
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15-06-2013, 09:45 PM
RE: The True Costs of Not Vaccinating
^People aren't saying to blindly trust all medical personnel (I certainly don't),they are saying to look at the facts instead of the propaganda. Unfortunately, most people don't seem too interested in facts.
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16-06-2013, 10:40 AM
RE: The True Costs of Not Vaccinating
I have never heard of anyone that is against ALL vaccines.

Out of curiosity: which vaccines are necessary for human suvival? Less than 3? Questioning the others is kind of common sense right? Measles can be deadly in a malnourished poverty stricken country yet to most people the measles is not deadly at all, hence why get it?

Prediction: questioning one vaccine will be turned into hating all vaccines by the people who can't read.
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16-06-2013, 11:03 AM
RE: The True Costs of Not Vaccinating
(16-06-2013 10:40 AM)I and I Wrote:  I have never heard of anyone that is against ALL vaccines.

Out of curiosity: which vaccines are necessary for human suvival? Less than 3? Questioning the others is kind of common sense right? Measles can be deadly in a malnourished poverty stricken country yet to most people the measles is not deadly at all, hence why get it?

Prediction: questioning one vaccine will be turned into hating all vaccines by the people who can't read.

You understate the dangers of measles.

And here.

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17-06-2013, 06:30 AM (This post was last modified: 17-06-2013 07:37 AM by JAH.)
RE: The True Costs of Not Vaccinating
I know I am not the only one on this board that is old enough to predate the MMR vaccine. I fortuitously caught the mumps such that I was home sick during the 1956 world series, unfortunately won by the even then hated Yankees. I also had the measles although I do not remember that so well except for the fact that my mother kept the room I was in dark for the duration.

I do not know the actual death rates from these diseases but I do not think they are particularly high. This is not advocating not having ones children vaccinated. I only point out that some of the diseases vaccinated against are not so dangerous.

I also had polio in my early youth during the last great world wide epidemic. Fortunately it was a mild case with no lasting damage. One of my classmates in high school had a oddly undeveloped shoulder muscle, he apparently contracted polio also but his case went undetected and he was never hospitalized. Again I am not advocating against immunization. My mother made sure the children got both the Salk and Sabin versions. I remember standing in a long line outside the local high school gym for the latter.

Tetanus as pointed out above can be deadly. I would point out to all adults on this board that the vaccination should be renewed every 5 years or so (look it up). I would guess that almost all of you were only vaccinated in your youth and should have it renewed.

As a PS. Scully above advocated having your children get the Gardasil vaccination, I cannot advocate this too strongly. I just went through the first round of my wife's bout with cervical cancer. It was not at all pleasant. On top of everything else she had to quit smoking which has made her even more cranky than normal. With Scully I am also amazed that it is not administered to males. I sometimes am troubled that I may have been the source of the HPV.
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17-06-2013, 07:33 AM
RE: The True Costs of Not Vaccinating
Before you start getting agitated, I'm a fence sitter on the topic. I'm not an anti-vaxxer, I don't want the return of smallpox. I'm just ignorant. My instinct is telling me to be careful. Yet there are two opposite ways to be careful.

I have an opinion that vaccines are a strain on the organism, depending on how early age and in what amounts and various kinds are they injected. Furthermore, although vaccines are generally not a good business, companies may seek to compensate that by lobbying at the government to buy vaccines in bulk, which then motivates the govt to push them onto people in larger amounts than necessary.

So the ideal thing is, to vaccinate as late as possible, yet not have the child die of some terrible disease in meantime. And they can catch one almost as soon as they are born, in a couple months or so, after the mother's immunity runs out, I suppose.

I must wonder if there is any better method of immunization. What about giving vaccinations through... patches? I mean, a steady infusion of disabled pathogens should resemble more what we deal with naturally, the immune system should learn just the same. Or is there anything about going through a full-blown immune reaction?

Vaccination yes, but is there a safer way to immunize? Something gradual, minimalistic, safely postponable and so on? Isn't the number of vaccines steadily increasing all the time? How many vaccines children receive? Today up to 24 till 2 years of age, sometimes up to 5 per visit. This seems to me more like a software update than an immune system training.
In early stages of child growth there's supposed to be a lot of neurologic setting up, I wonder what happens if that age is spent on a freakin' full immunologic emergency. My uneducated guess would be, that the immune system becomes more agitated and trigger-happy, which is just another word for the countless allergies that we see today and that old country people swear weren't around when they were young.

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17-06-2013, 08:54 AM
RE: The True Costs of Not Vaccinating
(17-06-2013 07:33 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Before you start getting agitated, I'm a fence sitter on the topic. I'm not an anti-vaxxer, I don't want the return of smallpox. I'm just ignorant. My instinct is telling me to be careful. Yet there are two opposite ways to be careful.

I have an opinion that vaccines are a strain on the organism, depending on how early age and in what amounts and various kinds are they injected. Furthermore, although vaccines are generally not a good business, companies may seek to compensate that by lobbying at the government to buy vaccines in bulk, which then motivates the govt to push them onto people in larger amounts than necessary.

So the ideal thing is, to vaccinate as late as possible, yet not have the child die of some terrible disease in meantime. And they can catch one almost as soon as they are born, in a couple months or so, after the mother's immunity runs out, I suppose.

I must wonder if there is any better method of immunization. What about giving vaccinations through... patches? I mean, a steady infusion of disabled pathogens should resemble more what we deal with naturally, the immune system should learn just the same. Or is there anything about going through a full-blown immune reaction?

Vaccination yes, but is there a safer way to immunize? Something gradual, minimalistic, safely postponable and so on? Isn't the number of vaccines steadily increasing all the time? How many vaccines children receive? Today up to 24 till 2 years of age, sometimes up to 5 per visit. This seems to me more like a software update than an immune system training.
In early stages of child growth there's supposed to be a lot of neurologic setting up, I wonder what happens if that age is spent on a freakin' full immunologic emergency. My uneducated guess would be, that the immune system becomes more agitated and trigger-happy, which is just another word for the countless allergies that we see today and that old country people swear weren't around when they were young.

You definitely need to learn more about how vaccines and the immune system work, especially regarding derived immunity and immune system development.

Your concerns are a bit off the mark.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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17-06-2013, 12:25 PM
RE: The True Costs of Not Vaccinating
(16-06-2013 10:40 AM)I and I Wrote:  I have never heard of anyone that is against ALL vaccines.

Out of curiosity: which vaccines are necessary for human suvival? Less than 3? Questioning the others is kind of common sense right? Measles can be deadly in a malnourished poverty stricken country yet to most people the measles is not deadly at all, hence why get it?

Prediction: questioning one vaccine will be turned into hating all vaccines by the people who can't read.

ZOMG I&I HATES ALL VACCINESS!!!!!! TROLOLOLLOLOLO!!!!1!!!1!11!!!1

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17-06-2013, 12:46 PM
RE: The True Costs of Not Vaccinating
(17-06-2013 08:54 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(17-06-2013 07:33 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Before you start getting agitated, I'm a fence sitter on the topic. I'm not an anti-vaxxer, I don't want the return of smallpox. I'm just ignorant. My instinct is telling me to be careful. Yet there are two opposite ways to be careful.

I have an opinion that vaccines are a strain on the organism, depending on how early age and in what amounts and various kinds are they injected. Furthermore, although vaccines are generally not a good business, companies may seek to compensate that by lobbying at the government to buy vaccines in bulk, which then motivates the govt to push them onto people in larger amounts than necessary.

So the ideal thing is, to vaccinate as late as possible, yet not have the child die of some terrible disease in meantime. And they can catch one almost as soon as they are born, in a couple months or so, after the mother's immunity runs out, I suppose.

I must wonder if there is any better method of immunization. What about giving vaccinations through... patches? I mean, a steady infusion of disabled pathogens should resemble more what we deal with naturally, the immune system should learn just the same. Or is there anything about going through a full-blown immune reaction?

Vaccination yes, but is there a safer way to immunize? Something gradual, minimalistic, safely postponable and so on? Isn't the number of vaccines steadily increasing all the time? How many vaccines children receive? Today up to 24 till 2 years of age, sometimes up to 5 per visit. This seems to me more like a software update than an immune system training.
In early stages of child growth there's supposed to be a lot of neurologic setting up, I wonder what happens if that age is spent on a freakin' full immunologic emergency. My uneducated guess would be, that the immune system becomes more agitated and trigger-happy, which is just another word for the countless allergies that we see today and that old country people swear weren't around when they were young.

You definitely need to learn more about how vaccines and the immune system work, especially regarding derived immunity and immune system development.

Your concerns are a bit off the mark.

I'm familiar with the basics of vaccines and immune systems, but I'm not certain we know all we need to know about infant development/neurology/etc to go screwing around injecting newborns with everything we can create. Just not buying that.

I do vax my kids, I use a delayed schedule. I am pro-vax. But at the end of the day I remember that the drug companies are for profit companies-and if we believed that every company is pure & ethical and only used science to promote good & well being and could self police then we would have no need for the EPA, and wouldn't have had the problems of DDT, PCB's and bunch of polluted rivers and streams.

I know vaccines work. I give them to my kids. But I don't for one minute forget that there is more to the story.

SOMETHING is fucking up kids these days....I don't what it is...maybe the vax, maybe the water, maybe Monsanto, maybe food sources and diet, maybe plastics, maybe our air, maybe a combo of different things....I don't know....but something is....no doubt in my mind about that.


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17-06-2013, 01:14 PM
RE: The True Costs of Not Vaccinating
(17-06-2013 12:46 PM)Bows and Arrows Wrote:  
(17-06-2013 08:54 AM)Chas Wrote:  You definitely need to learn more about how vaccines and the immune system work, especially regarding derived immunity and immune system development.

Your concerns are a bit off the mark.

I'm familiar with the basics of vaccines and immune systems, but I'm not certain we know all we need to know about infant development/neurology/etc to go screwing around injecting newborns with everything we can create. Just not buying that.

I do vax my kids, I use a delayed schedule. I am pro-vax. But at the end of the day I remember that the drug companies are for profit companies-and if we believed that every company is pure & ethical and only used science to promote good & well being and could self police then we would have no need for the EPA, and wouldn't have had the problems of DDT, PCB's and bunch of polluted rivers and streams.

I know vaccines work. I give them to my kids. But I don't for one minute forget that there is more to the story.

SOMETHING is fucking up kids these days....I don't what it is...maybe the vax, maybe the water, maybe Monsanto, maybe food sources and diet, maybe plastics, maybe our air, maybe a combo of different things....I don't know....but something is....no doubt in my mind about that.

What's "fucking up kids today" is advances in medical science. The ones that have all kinds of problems most likely would not have made it through infancy 100 years ago, so yes now that they do they have expanded problems. This is cause and effect and unless we resort to eugenics it will continue down this line. Medical research extends the life of someone with a disadvantage (prone to a disease birth defect, whatever) we then find the next step in that disadvantage and start working on that. When you can't see the forest for the trees it does get discouraging that we have more cases of problems but then we also have more people.

I don't trust the big drug companies either but on vaccines I think the risk is worth the reward as to date there have been no links to any major health crisis (reputable ones) resulting from vaccinating. We do need more research into the when and the effect of the multi-vaccine but this is where the anti-vax crowd is really screwing people up anytime someone comes out with a result that may be interpreted as being against vaccines in any way they are Lumped in with the Jenny Mccarthy crowd.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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17-06-2013, 01:27 PM
RE: The True Costs of Not Vaccinating
(17-06-2013 12:46 PM)Bows and Arrows Wrote:  
(17-06-2013 08:54 AM)Chas Wrote:  You definitely need to learn more about how vaccines and the immune system work, especially regarding derived immunity and immune system development.

Your concerns are a bit off the mark.

I'm familiar with the basics of vaccines and immune systems, but I'm not certain we know all we need to know about infant development/neurology/etc to go screwing around injecting newborns with everything we can create. Just not buying that.

I do vax my kids, I use a delayed schedule. I am pro-vax. But at the end of the day I remember that the drug companies are for profit companies-and if we believed that every company is pure & ethical and only used science to promote good & well being and could self police then we would have no need for the EPA, and wouldn't have had the problems of DDT, PCB's and bunch of polluted rivers and streams.

I know vaccines work. I give them to my kids. But I don't for one minute forget that there is more to the story.

SOMETHING is fucking up kids these days....I don't what it is...maybe the vax, maybe the water, maybe Monsanto, maybe food sources and diet, maybe plastics, maybe our air, maybe a combo of different things....I don't know....but something is....no doubt in my mind about that.

I don't disagree with your fears or suspicions in principle, but possibly in magnitude.
We certainly live in a chemical soup that previous generations did not - we know that parts of that are harmful.

We need to look, too, at the fact that reporting and diagnosis play their part, as well. We have more information, but we also diagnose people with some spectrum disorder today that would have bee simply chalked up as "quiet child", "rambunctious child", "odd child", "problem child", and so on not many years ago.

I can think of several people I went to school with who would today be diagnosed with one thing or another.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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