The True Costs of Not Vaccinating
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18-06-2013, 05:32 AM
RE: The True Costs of Not Vaccinating
This is something I am pretty passionate about. My kid is 2 and a half and he is up to date on all vaccinations, but what really gets me going is how in his daycare he had been around several children with delusional parents who refuse to vaccinate. Of course this was not supposed to happen, but our provider made exceptions for friends of theirs and watched their kid. Maybe I overreacted, but when I found out I flipped. One of the biggest reasons some of these unnecessary diseases are making a comeback in parts of the nation and world is because of this belief, lacking even a SINGLE shred of evidence, that vaccinations can harm your child, and that is can cause Autism. Never mind that all of this has been debunked and discredited. Andrew Wakefield, the "doctor" who penned the original paper and championed the argument for linking vaccines to Autism, etc. has been named one of science's greatest frauds because of course his research was all faked and unable to be replicated by any other scientist. Just another snake charmer trying to make a quick buck off the fears of parents.

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03-07-2013, 01:40 PM
RE: The True Costs of Not Vaccinating
(17-06-2013 06:30 AM)JAH Wrote:  I do not know the actual death rates from these diseases but I do not think they are particularly high. This is not advocating not having ones children vaccinated. I only point out that some of the diseases vaccinated against are not so dangerous.

They are not very high, it's a few in a thousand cases in developed countries, however, the number of cases of measlel with severe complications is about ten times higher. Also when there is not enough people vaccinated in the population to prevent an epidemic spreding of infection, a great part of people sensitive to MMR get those infections, for example without vaccination you could expect hundreds thousands of cases a year only in US, this means a few hundreds of people would die.
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04-07-2013, 06:47 AM
RE: The True Costs of Not Vaccinating
One absolutely cool thing about vaccination is that the world no longer suffers world-wide disease outbreaks. In fact, I think the last world-wide "plague" we had was during World War I - the Spanish Flu. Measels, Mumps, Chicken Pox, Small Pox, Polio, Tuberculousus and Flu Pandemics - and all the death that went with them - are pretty much a thing of the past.
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04-07-2013, 09:02 AM
RE: The True Costs of Not Vaccinating
(04-07-2013 06:47 AM)Julius Wrote:  One absolutely cool thing about vaccination is that the world no longer suffers world-wide disease outbreaks. In fact, I think the last world-wide "plague" we had was during World War I - the Spanish Flu. Measels, Mumps, Chicken Pox, Small Pox, Polio, Tuberculousus and Flu Pandemics - and all the death that went with them - are pretty much a thing of the past.

We still have big epidemics of seasonal flu every year, not many people are vaccinated and the problem is that you need a new vaccine every year, because the virus of flu changes. We haven't had a pandemic like a Spanish Flu, but it's not because vaccines, but rather because chance that the virus mutates in such way is small and once the pandemics is over, people are immune to that virus. However if some virus like Spanish Flu occurred, we have some chance to prevent a lot of infections if we can make the vaccine soon enough.

Also I think there is still a lot of people (mainly children) getting chicken pox, at least in my country, the vaccination is optional and most people are not vaccinated. An efficient vaccine exist, but I don't know anything about it's costs and what are typical costs of chicken pock treatment and how common are complications.

There is a problem with Tuberculosis, that the vaccine is one of the less safe and less effective, fox example in my country it was removed from compulsory vaccinations recently. However, in countries with high risk of infection the beneficial effects prevail.

Small pox is probably the greatest success of vaccination being completely eradicated. Polio is a candidate for being eradicated, but still we haven't managed to completely eradicate it. But it's already a great success.

Measles and Mumps are obvious, they were totally common infections and today they are rare, however, if the vaccination level lowers under certain number, epidemic outbreaks occur.
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04-07-2013, 10:41 AM
RE: The True Costs of Not Vaccinating
There is a great book on this subject called The Panic Virus: The True Story Behind the Vaccine-Autism Controversy by Seth Mnookin. The book goes through the history of vaccines from it's infancy to the 1998 Andrew Wakefield fake findings and his self promotion. One of the interesting chapters of the book was the of the rise of vaccine fear and the beginnings of the internet, both intersecting and fueling the flames with rumor and misinformation. It was difficult to put the genie back into the internet bottle after the mass misinformation started. Jenny McCarthy's "research" was all on the internet and all those supposed facts were just recycled hearsay.

Another aspect of the book touched on the yuppie, SUV crowd who bought into the whole vaccine-autism connection.

It's a fantastic book, couldn't put it down. Seth Mnookin, The Panic Virus. I highly recommended it.

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04-07-2013, 03:23 PM
RE: The True Costs of Not Vaccinating
(04-07-2013 10:41 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  There is a great book on this subject called The Panic Virus: The True Story Behind the Vaccine-Autism Controversy by Seth Mnookin. The book goes through the history of vaccines from it's infancy to the 1998 Andrew Wakefield fake findings and his self promotion. One of the interesting chapters of the book was the of the rise of vaccine fear and the beginnings of the internet, both intersecting and fueling the flames with rumor and misinformation. It was difficult to put the genie back into the internet bottle after the mass misinformation started. Jenny McCarthy's "research" was all on the internet and all those supposed facts were just recycled hearsay.

Another aspect of the book touched on the yuppie, SUV crowd who bought into the whole vaccine-autism connection.

It's a fantastic book, couldn't put it down. Seth Mnookin, The Panic Virus. I highly recommended it.

Basically on every page aimed on mothers with small children you can find an anti-vaccination discussion. And also an "alternative medicine" section. Hearing about the vaccines and autism all the time disturbs me, especially when one sees people selling their "solutions" (like homeopathy to "heal the damage caused by vaccines"). It disturbs me more since I am somewhat interested about autism and I realize that while parents spend time and money doing useless things, children with autism are denied the real effective treatment (which can't heal the autism, but which can help them to live a better life).
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06-07-2013, 08:24 PM
RE: The True Costs of Not Vaccinating
I discussed with a loved one the OP's article only to learn that she seems to have bought into the anti-vax propaganda. I find it quite distressing that a few strategically-phrased sentences superimposed onto a photo or illustration spreads like wildfire on FaceBook & so powerfully influences public opinion. My friend posts things from websites such as 'naturalcuresnotmedicine.org' & it's put me on a bit of a crusade.

Anyway, I recently found the site sciencebasedmedicine.org and this is the piece I got sucked into this morning:

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/blam...-movement/

(sorry if it doesn't hyperlink; I'm doing this from my Android)

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07-07-2013, 06:12 AM
The True Costs of Not Vaccinating
(06-07-2013 08:24 PM)Percepticon Wrote:  I discussed with a loved one the OP's article only to learn that she seems to have bought into the anti-vax propaganda. I find it quite distressing that a few strategically-phrased sentences superimposed onto a photo or illustration spreads like wildfire on FaceBook & so powerfully influences public opinion. My friend posts things from websites such as 'naturalcuresnotmedicine.org' & it's put me on a bit of a crusade.

Anyway, I recently found the site sciencebasedmedicine.org and this is the piece I got sucked into this morning:

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/blam...-movement/

(sorry if it doesn't hyperlink; I'm doing this from my Android)

~Valerie

Bullshit can be added to truth to make more bullshit. The FDA and pharmaceutical industries have and do cause harm and do little studies on things they say is safe. This is an undeniable fact, however this is stretched into somehow meaning that it is known that x causes autism by the anti vaccine crowd.
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16-07-2013, 04:17 AM
RE: The True Costs of Not Vaccinating
(14-06-2013 05:49 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2013...776327.htm

With so much misinformation out there this is why people should talk to their doctors before making decisions like this. Jenny Mccarthy is a dumb bimbo who has caused harm far beyond her worth.

BTW Chas I was going to put this under science since it is pro-vaccine but for you I refrained. Smile

For a site having the word "thinking" in its title there sure is a lot of dogmatic, hostile and ill conceived opinions in this particular thread. Talking about the true cost of not vaccinating depends rather heavily on precisely what is in the vaccines, and I have a hard time understanding why this is even controversial.
I mean, would you take a vaccine from Josef Mengele? Charlie Manson? Jim Jones? Clearly you would not. So in other words vaccines are not either good or bad, but can be both depending on what they contain.
For this reason, any discussion about vaccines that does not go into what a specific vaccine contains is a fake discussion, and it is certainly not science. It is a very easily demonstrable fact that vaccine batches containing polio were distributed in Africa as far back as the 50s and 60s. The intrinsic problem with vaccines is precisely things like this, because the average person is not in a position to test the ingredients of a vaccine, and is therefore taking it on faith that nothing harmful is in them and that they actually help against what the manufacturers claim.
I think the fanatic pro vaccine statements I read here are absolutely fantastic after the H1n1 hysteria. A toxic vaccine was mass produced globally for huge profits as every national government wasted taxpayer funds on it before trying to force what they had bought on the citizens. It didn`t work against the flu, was full of toxins like squaleen AND politicians and other "elites" got a different shot without any of the toxins in it. What sort of "Public health" is this? I`m not saying vaccines can`t be beneficial, but recent experience clearly demonstrates that they`re not.
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16-07-2013, 04:22 AM
RE: The True Costs of Not Vaccinating
(18-06-2013 05:32 AM)AtheistTeacher Wrote:  This is something I am pretty passionate about. My kid is 2 and a half and he is up to date on all vaccinations, but what really gets me going is how in his daycare he had been around several children with delusional parents who refuse to vaccinate. Of course this was not supposed to happen, but our provider made exceptions for friends of theirs and watched their kid. Maybe I overreacted, but when I found out I flipped. One of the biggest reasons some of these unnecessary diseases are making a comeback in parts of the nation and world is because of this belief, lacking even a SINGLE shred of evidence, that vaccinations can harm your child, and that is can cause Autism. Never mind that all of this has been debunked and discredited. Andrew Wakefield, the "doctor" who penned the original paper and championed the argument for linking vaccines to Autism, etc. has been named one of science's greatest frauds because of course his research was all faked and unable to be replicated by any other scientist. Just another snake charmer trying to make a quick buck off the fears of parents.

But if your children are vaccinated and that allegedly makes them immune, what difference does it make if other children aren`t vaccinated? And if I put poisons in your vaccine it will obviously be harmful, so your blanket statement that vaccines can`t cause any kind of harm is absurd. The discussion should be about what is in the vaccines, such as mercury/thimerasol. How can it be true simultaneously that mercury is so toxic you need to call poison control if you get it on your skin, and that it is perfectly safe to squirt it into your bloodstream? This sure doesn`t sound like science to me. It sounds like propaganda, and not very good propaganda either.
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