The True Costs of Not Vaccinating
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
16-07-2013, 12:21 PM
RE: The True Costs of Not Vaccinating
(16-07-2013 04:17 AM)Skulb Wrote:  
(14-06-2013 05:49 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2013...776327.htm

With so much misinformation out there this is why people should talk to their doctors before making decisions like this. Jenny Mccarthy is a dumb bimbo who has caused harm far beyond her worth.

BTW Chas I was going to put this under science since it is pro-vaccine but for you I refrained. Smile

For a site having the word "thinking" in its title there sure is a lot of dogmatic, hostile and ill conceived opinions in this particular thread. Talking about the true cost of not vaccinating depends rather heavily on precisely what is in the vaccines, and I have a hard time understanding why this is even controversial.
I mean, would you take a vaccine from Josef Mengele? Charlie Manson? Jim Jones? Clearly you would not. So in other words vaccines are not either good or bad, but can be both depending on what they contain.
For this reason, any discussion about vaccines that does not go into what a specific vaccine contains is a fake discussion, and it is certainly not science. It is a very easily demonstrable fact that vaccine batches containing polio were distributed in Africa as far back as the 50s and 60s. The intrinsic problem with vaccines is precisely things like this, because the average person is not in a position to test the ingredients of a vaccine, and is therefore taking it on faith that nothing harmful is in them and that they actually help against what the manufacturers claim.
I think the fanatic pro vaccine statements I read here are absolutely fantastic after the H1n1 hysteria. A toxic vaccine was mass produced globally for huge profits as every national government wasted taxpayer funds on it before trying to force what they had bought on the citizens. It didn`t work against the flu, was full of toxins like squaleen AND politicians and other "elites" got a different shot without any of the toxins in it. What sort of "Public health" is this? I`m not saying vaccines can`t be beneficial, but recent experience clearly demonstrates that they`re not.

You are some sort of anti-vax ideologue, aren't you? Squalene (not squaleen) is not a toxin.

Wikipedia Wrote:Squalene is a natural organic compound originally obtained for commercial purposes primarily from shark liver oil, though plant sources (primarily vegetable oils) are used as well, including amaranth seed, rice bran, wheat germ, and olives. All plants and animals produce squalene, including humans. Squalene has been proposed to be an important part of the Mediterranean diet as it may be a chemopreventive substance that protects people from cancer. It is also found in the stomach oil of birds in the order Procellariiformes.

Squalene is a hydrocarbon and a triterpene, and is a natural and vital part of the synthesis of cholesterol, steroid hormones, and vitamin D in the human body. Squalene is used in cosmetics, and more recently as an immunologic adjuvant in vaccines.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Chas's post
16-07-2013, 12:26 PM
RE: The True Costs of Not Vaccinating
(16-07-2013 04:22 AM)Skulb Wrote:  
(18-06-2013 05:32 AM)AtheistTeacher Wrote:  This is something I am pretty passionate about. My kid is 2 and a half and he is up to date on all vaccinations, but what really gets me going is how in his daycare he had been around several children with delusional parents who refuse to vaccinate. Of course this was not supposed to happen, but our provider made exceptions for friends of theirs and watched their kid. Maybe I overreacted, but when I found out I flipped. One of the biggest reasons some of these unnecessary diseases are making a comeback in parts of the nation and world is because of this belief, lacking even a SINGLE shred of evidence, that vaccinations can harm your child, and that is can cause Autism. Never mind that all of this has been debunked and discredited. Andrew Wakefield, the "doctor" who penned the original paper and championed the argument for linking vaccines to Autism, etc. has been named one of science's greatest frauds because of course his research was all faked and unable to be replicated by any other scientist. Just another snake charmer trying to make a quick buck off the fears of parents.

But if your children are vaccinated and that allegedly makes them immune, what difference does it make if other children aren`t vaccinated? And if I put poisons in your vaccine it will obviously be harmful, so your blanket statement that vaccines can`t cause any kind of harm is absurd. The discussion should be about what is in the vaccines, such as mercury/thimerasol. How can it be true simultaneously that mercury is so toxic you need to call poison control if you get it on your skin, and that it is perfectly safe to squirt it into your bloodstream? This sure doesn`t sound like science to me. It sounds like propaganda, and not very good propaganda either.

Vaccines are generally not 100% effective, and the degree of resistance varies from person to person. Many of those who are vaccinated are still susceptible to the disease if exposed to high levels of the disease organism.

This is the basis of herd immunity. If enough of the population is protected well enough, an epidemic cannot arise.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Chas's post
16-07-2013, 12:29 PM
RE: The True Costs of Not Vaccinating
(16-07-2013 04:35 AM)Skulb Wrote:  Talk about political correctness. Obviously a vaccine would be harmful if you put poisons into it. I mean, nobody would accept a vaccine from Josef Mengele or Jim Jones. So the discussion should be about precisely what is in the vaccines being forced on us. i stress forced because that`s the reality of this. Do I have a right to not have mercury forced into my bloodstream? I vote "yes" and the real abuse is by the people who insist that I don`t, not by people who want to be left alone.
And anyway, if it is true that people who are vaccinated are immune then what does it matter if somebody else isn`t vaccinated? You`re immune right? And if you`re not immune so that my unclean, non-vaccinated person is a threat to you, why did you get vaccinated in the first place? And don`t give me herd immunity. We`re not a herd but have individual immune systems.
The H1 n1 fiasco show clearly that there is no reason to trust vaccines anymore. Sure, they could be used beneficially, but they just aren`t. This particular vaccine which was forced on the public world wide, after every national government had wasted its taxpayers money on billions of rounds of it, DID NOT WORK because the flu virus changes each season so it is impossible to prepare the correct batch even if the objective was benevolent, rather than fraud and corruption. It was also full of poisons like mercury/thimerasol and squalen AND politicians and other "elites" got a separate one without all the toxins. What sort of "public health" is this, even if the pro vaccine rhetoric is legitimate? I`m not interested personally, and have a hard time understanding where all the confidence in this "medical" system comes from.

You clearly do not understand how vaccines work, and therefore don't understand herd immunity.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Chas's post
16-07-2013, 12:33 PM
RE: The True Costs of Not Vaccinating
http://www.wnd.com/2001/05/9062/

Possible link between vaccines and HIV.

http://www.naturalnews.com/032579_hepati...cines.html

Hepatitis B vaccine linked to neurological disorders.

http://www.mold-removal.biz/mold-vaccine...tbreak.htm

Mold in vaccines.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/323187

Whooping cough outbreak linked to vaccines.

http://experimentalvaccines.org/2012/11/...-children/

And mumps.

http://www.vaccinetruth.org/polio_vaccines.htm

And finally polio, which broke out as a result of the Salk vaccination campaign in Africa which was used to "prove" that vaccines were beneficial.

http://www.vaccinationnews.com/dailynews...poison.htm

Has a helpful list where the symptoms of autism and mercury poisoning are listed side by side for convenience. Go have a look at them for yourself and you`ll discover that they`re more or less identical.
How much do I need to be allowed to not trust vaccines without being called names?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-07-2013, 12:35 PM
RE: The True Costs of Not Vaccinating
(16-07-2013 12:15 PM)Skulb Wrote:  Ad hominem attacks and appeals to authority are logical fallacies. is all you`ve got so far.
What I wrote was a reasonable argumentation, which means it`s based on thinking and not specific facts. It is a logical fact that vaccines can be and often are contaminated, and that as a result people have the right to know for sure what`s in them and to refuse to take them. None of this is really debatable, but you responded with insults and appeals to authority.
That`s why you`re indoctrinated because you operate on emotions and bullying tactics instead of facts. Or reason. And that is why I would prefer to wait for some intelligent life to appear in this thread. Debating you is as pointless as talking to a wall.

No, it is not a fact that vaccines are often contaminated. You will need to cite reliable sources to show us the rate of contamination.

Are you a biochemist or a medical researcher? How do you know what substances in a given vaccine do?
You got it wrong on squalene, so your opinion of the ingredients doesn't seem reliable.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Chas's post
16-07-2013, 12:39 PM
RE: The True Costs of Not Vaccinating
(16-07-2013 12:15 PM)Skulb Wrote:  Ad hominem attacks and appeals to authority are logical fallacies. is all you`ve got so far.

Hmm. Actually, no. I called you on factually incorrect statements, which you presented without any evidence whatsoever.

Such as the following:
(16-07-2013 04:17 AM)Skulb Wrote:  It is a very easily demonstrable fact that vaccine batches containing polio were distributed in Africa as far back as the 50s and 60s.
(16-07-2013 04:17 AM)Skulb Wrote:  H1n1 [vaccine] ... didn`t work against the flu, was full of toxins like squaleen AND politicians and other "elites" got a different shot without any of the toxins in it.
(16-07-2013 04:17 AM)Skulb Wrote:  recent experience clearly demonstrates that [vaccines]`re not [beneficial].
(16-07-2013 04:22 AM)Skulb Wrote:  The discussion should be about what is in the vaccines, such as mercury/thimerasol. How can it be true simultaneously that mercury is so toxic you need to call poison control if you get it on your skin, and that it is perfectly safe to squirt it into your bloodstream?
(16-07-2013 04:35 AM)Skulb Wrote:  what does it matter if somebody else isn`t vaccinated? You`re immune right? And if you`re not immune so that my unclean, non-vaccinated person is a threat to you, why did you get vaccinated in the first place? And don`t give me herd immunity. We`re not a herd but have individual immune systems.
(16-07-2013 04:35 AM)Skulb Wrote:  every national government had wasted its taxpayers money on [h1n1 vaccine], DID NOT WORK
(16-07-2013 04:35 AM)Skulb Wrote:  It was also full of poisons like mercury/thimerasol and squalen AND politicians and other "elites" got a separate one without all the toxins.

An appeal to authority is fallacious when the authority is in another field. It is not fallacious when that authority is directly pertaining to the matter at hand.

(16-07-2013 12:15 PM)Skulb Wrote:  What I wrote was a reasonable argumentation, which means it`s based on thinking and not specific facts.

Unfortunately for you, reasonable conclusions can only be drawn from facts, and not induction alone.

(16-07-2013 12:15 PM)Skulb Wrote:  It is a logical fact that vaccines can be and often are contaminated, and that as a result people have the right to know for sure what`s in them and to refuse to take them.

Once again, it seems as if you're unaware of the strict regulatory apparatus involved. And indeed one IS free to refuse any medical treatment.

You have not responded to my question regarding other intakes; all food products can be contaminated. However, in that case, refusing to consume them is either a short term solution or a very permanent one, depending on one's point of view.

(16-07-2013 12:15 PM)Skulb Wrote:  None of this is really debatable, but you responded with insults and appeals to authority.

Nope, try again. Perhaps you take umbrage at the use of the word 'paranoid'? I merely use it to indicate an unreasonable fear of the demonstrably not harmful. That's you.

(16-07-2013 12:15 PM)Skulb Wrote:  That`s why you`re indoctrinated because you operate on emotions and bullying tactics instead of facts. Or reason. And that is why I would prefer to wait for some intelligent life to appear in this thread. Debating you is as pointless as talking to a wall.

Rolleyes

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes cjlr's post
16-07-2013, 12:44 PM
RE: The True Costs of Not Vaccinating
(16-07-2013 12:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, it is not a fact that vaccines are often contaminated. You will need to cite reliable sources to show us the rate of contamination.

Are you a biochemist or a medical researcher? How do you know what substances in a given vaccine do?
You got it wrong on squalene, so your opinion of the ingredients doesn't seem reliable.

Silly Chas. All peer-reviewed scientific publications are part of the big pharma coverup conspiracy, and citing them would merely be a fallacious appeal to authority. Haven't you heard? Clearly the ravings of a handful of unsourced websites is to be taken much more seriously. First it was fluoride and now it's vaccines. Coincidence? I THINK NOT.

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes cjlr's post
16-07-2013, 12:53 PM (This post was last modified: 16-07-2013 12:56 PM by Chas.)
RE: The True Costs of Not Vaccinating
(16-07-2013 12:33 PM)Skulb Wrote:  http://www.wnd.com/2001/05/9062/

Possible link between vaccines and HIV.

http://www.naturalnews.com/032579_hepati...cines.html

Hepatitis B vaccine linked to neurological disorders.

http://www.mold-removal.biz/mold-vaccine...tbreak.htm

Mold in vaccines.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/323187

Whooping cough outbreak linked to vaccines.

http://experimentalvaccines.org/2012/11/...-children/

And mumps.

http://www.vaccinetruth.org/polio_vaccines.htm

And finally polio, which broke out as a result of the Salk vaccination campaign in Africa which was used to "prove" that vaccines were beneficial.

http://www.vaccinationnews.com/dailynews...poison.htm

Has a helpful list where the symptoms of autism and mercury poisoning are listed side by side for convenience. Go have a look at them for yourself and you`ll discover that they`re more or less identical.
How much do I need to be allowed to not trust vaccines without being called names?

I believe I asked for reliable sources. Drinking Beverage

For example, this one http://www.mold-removal.biz/mold-vaccine...tbreak.htm calls the steroidal medication a vaccine. They don't even know what a vaccine is. Shocking

Yes, that medication was contaminated. The lab was breaking the rules. The lab is shut down.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Chas's post
16-07-2013, 12:55 PM
RE: The True Costs of Not Vaccinating
(16-07-2013 12:53 PM)Chas Wrote:  I believe I asked for reliable sources. Drinking Beverage

Silly Chas.

How can an article which asserts the following with a straight face
http://www.vaccinetruth.org/polio_vaccines.htm Wrote:The rise of polio (known as the "summertime disease") and its symptomatic twins can be traced to the widespread introduction of refrigeration and the increased consumption of ice cream and other concentrated protein foods.
be anything but reliable?

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes cjlr's post
16-07-2013, 01:04 PM (This post was last modified: 16-07-2013 01:11 PM by Skulb.)
RE: The True Costs of Not Vaccinating
(16-07-2013 12:35 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(16-07-2013 12:15 PM)Skulb Wrote:  Ad hominem attacks and appeals to authority are logical fallacies. is all you`ve got so far.
What I wrote was a reasonable argumentation, which means it`s based on thinking and not specific facts. It is a logical fact that vaccines can be and often are contaminated, and that as a result people have the right to know for sure what`s in them and to refuse to take them. None of this is really debatable, but you responded with insults and appeals to authority.
That`s why you`re indoctrinated because you operate on emotions and bullying tactics instead of facts. Or reason. And that is why I would prefer to wait for some intelligent life to appear in this thread. Debating you is as pointless as talking to a wall.

No, it is not a fact that vaccines are often contaminated. You will need to cite reliable sources to show us the rate of contamination.

Are you a biochemist or a medical researcher? How do you know what substances in a given vaccine do?
You got it wrong on squalene, so your opinion of the ingredients doesn't seem reliable.

I just listed some examples. The problem, as I know from experience, is that people in forums like these refuse to look at examples and evidence that contradicts their preconceived opinions, which was why I attempted logic. Since toxins can be added to vaccines no other argument should be needed to accept that some people refuse to go on faith with vaccines. As long as people can`t verify what is in them personally and determine whether it`s all safe no government has a right to force it on them. I would have thought this was pretty uncontroversial, but apparently not...And as long as you add the requirement that sources be "reliable" there is a problem. Who decides what is reliable?

http://www.scribd.com/doc/18753533/Squal...et-Exposed

Squalene and neurotoxicity in relation to vaccinations of Gulf War soldiers. I know it is controversial, you don`t apparently. I don`t mind a discussion and if you have some info go ahead, but I do mind that you claim the truth as yours without proper evidence and no visible research. And there is a difference between ingesting something and having it squirted into the bloodstream, so unless you can link to something proving that that is safe you don`t have a case. But then you must know this already, which makes me wonder what the point was of your squalene link in the first place.
And the fact that I am not a medical researcher or a biochemist is precisely the point. You can`t make this level of education a requirement to have an opinion on vaccines one way or the other. We`re not talking about something trivial but about governments and experts demanding the right to decide what goes into your body. Wars have been fought over less than this and personally I would refuse such a mandate even if it could be 100% proven that it is harmless and effective, which I hardly think is the case.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: