The Trump Impeachment Thread
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24-09-2017, 10:10 PM (This post was last modified: 24-09-2017 10:14 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: The Trump Impeachment Thread
I watched the Redskins-Raiders game, the Raiders solved the problem by just fucking sitting there on the bench, no standing, no kneeling, just fucking sitting there. They will always be from Oakland to me. Compton's got nothing on them.

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24-09-2017, 10:52 PM (This post was last modified: 24-09-2017 10:56 PM by WhiskeyDebates.)
RE: The Trump Impeachment Thread
(24-09-2017 07:32 PM)epronovost Wrote:  The other advantage of these protests is that they are heavily mediatised and are done by people that are rather well known. The simple exposure they give to social issue about racism in the US is worth millions in terms of publicity. It could also lead to people who are relatively unconcerned by political issues to question this sudden change in behavior. Sometime, money isn't necessary to achieve an objective.
Oh, I agree it's not necessary but if you want to look like you're doing something you should actually do something especially when you have the means and ability to do something substantive. You can kneel during as many anthems as you like but if that's all you do it's hallow as far as I'm concerned, it's the desire to look like you're helping without actually helping.
Shouldn't come as shock on this forum haha but the person who sent $100 to help flood or fire victims has done more actual good than every single person who changed their profile picture or sent "thoughts and prayers". It's not just that though, it's absolutely great to send $100 to help someone but the person who makes $2000 a month and sends $100 is better than the person who makes $2,000,000 a year and sends $100. They are both good actions but one is better and more meaningful, one is a personal sacrifice for the betterment of those less fortunate and the other is a token effort.


(24-09-2017 07:32 PM)epronovost Wrote:  My question to you WhiskeyDebates is what did YOU to protest against against systemic racism in the United States? Have you financed the actvities of any altermondialist or civil right group? Have you participated in protests? Don't take it as a personnal attack on your person, but I do like to turn the mirror around and see if people match their personnal expectation.

Oh man this question is tricky for me to answer as I really haven't been comfortable talking about the things I do in this context, mostly cause it's embarrassing and well....fuck it's the internet I can just claim to do all kinds of bullshit and have no way of proving it and I generally prefer to stick to that which is demonstrable. Plus I got meh reputation as a hard nosed sumabitch to think about haha.....but...fuck it I'll answer anyway.

Before I do however I do gotta say that it does kinda feel a bit personal just cause my critique was against people who specifically have the disposable income to make a real and impactful difference and chose not to. I don't have that kind of income, to say the least, haha so I'm not sure I'd consider turning that specific mirror around buuuut fuck me life's not fair so I'll bite none the less with no hard feelings haha. This is why in my mind, despite both making amazing contributions to the tech industry Bill Gates is an infinitely better person than Steve Jobs.

Ok so breaking my response down into 2 parts:
1.) About 22%-30% of my take-home pay goes to charitable organization or social groups I think are beneficial. I'm a donor to three Athiest organizations, two in Alberta where I live and one in British Colombia, and I occasionally spend my free time cruising patron for worthwhile causes (that's what I did with a chunk of my severance pay in may). While back we had some really bad fires here in Alberta up near Fort Mac adn the oil sands and me and my brother took some vacation time and went up there to lend a hand. I spent some time in Africa after my wife died and have been sponsoring children for 12 years without a single break because seeing the conditions over was ....traumatic for me. I've marched in several LGBT rallies due to close friends who are gay and transexual. I spent some time working in soup kitchens but that was over 8 years ago now.
I know this will seem really vague and that's unfortunately necessary but I worked with a group of people who I won't name in a place I won't name at a time I won't offer to find women involved int he sex trade against their will, extract them, and if possible get them back to their families and if not set them up with new lives and identification. All the expenses came out of pocket, it was not legal strictly speaking, and it was incredibly dangerous. It was also the most fulfilling work I ever did in my life, but that's all I will say and I'll likely never bring it up again.

Before anyone pats me on the back or some silly shit like that I have a disorder that keeps me from being able to fully empathize with my own struggles, something I've briefly mentioned in the past. This means I don't really care what happens to me and leads me to look after other people even when doing so is detrimental to my own well-being. I have people in my life that help keep me grounded but it can get away from me sometimes. So how much of my good deeds are actually noble and how much is a result of my empathy disorder I don't know, which is why I don't like talking about this shit. Gives me anxiety.

It's also kinda hard to get people to mesh my real life charitable nature with the guy that constantly calls peopel cunts when they act stupid lol

2.) Anyway, as for what I did when it came to protesting systematic racism in the United States, I'll say two things, one of which you're not likely to enjoy. Firstly I'm Irish, I was born there but raised all over and have been in Canada for about 10 years now give or take. Racism in the US is just not a pressing concern for me. It's hard for me to really wrap my head around hating someone because of their melanin count. I mean... if they are a cunt sure but your race tells me nothing about you. Culture can inform but skin can't.

I've added a TL;DR at the end if you don't wanna wade through the next big wall of text lol.

Ok, so the part you won't like. What I DID do though is get a good understanding of the relevant statistics, how to do good statistical analysis, and a good understanding of definitions. The reason you don't see me shouting on this forum about the "systemic or institutional racism in the United States" is that statistically speaking it doesn't really exist unless you mutilate the definitions of "institutional" and "systemic" to the point they lose all meaning.
There are people and groups who push a narrative of systemic racism because it is politically and socially profitable to do so and the media have been complicit in pushing this narrative as well.
Take the case of Michel Brown as an example as it has largely spawned the BLM movement and the "hands up don't shoot" slogan. This slogan and the narrative behind it is a demonstrated and malicious lie, Michael Brown was not shot with his hands up while surrendering. He was shot because he was stopped by police because he matched the description of a suspect involved in a robbery and assault (which he actually did) and during that stop he assaulted a police officer and tried to take his gun. The court case proved this, the physical evidence proved this to be true, and the witnesses saying otherwise were shown beyond a shadow of a doubt to either be actively engaged in lying or at best totally unreliable. It was by every metric a justifiable shooting.
Yet despite this being the case BLM and much of the media has persisted with the story that Michael Brown was an innocent victim of racially motivated police killing who had his hands up. This is, to me anyway, deeply disturbing behaviour especially when you start looking at crime statistics and realize what largely African-American communities need is MORE police not less.
So what do I mean by that? Well if racism is systemic and the single biggest issue African-Americans have to face today it should manifest in predictable ways but I really don't see it doing so. The problem that seems to be plaguing Black communities is a continuing breakdown of the familial unit which leads to more and more poverty and due to the drug prohibition being among the most lucrative "entry level jobs" a poor black man can get a corresponding increase in criminality and thus violence. Violence is inevitable in a black market as it's the only effective way of policing the market.

If race is the issue that is destroying the Black community then why, according to FBI crime statistics, are Blacks killing other Blacks at rates significantly higher than whites are killing whites or whites killing blacks? Why are blacks significantly more likely to the be the offender and not the victim in interracial violence? Why are, according to those numbers, police 18.5 times more likely to be killed by a black attacker than to kill an "unarmed" black man? If Blacks make up 14% of the population, half of which are male (7%), and the vast majority (90%ish) of homicides are committed by men (that 7%) why are Blacks responsible for around 40% of police killings? How can 7% of a population be responsible for nearly half (47.4%) of all homicides, most of which were against other Blacks if the problem is white racists?
To be honest and frank if I saw that 7% of the countries population was fully responsible for nearly half of all homicides and 60%+ of violent crime I would expect them to be disproportionately shot by police. I'd actually expect the numbers to be higher though I'm extremely glad they are not.
Racism, especially not "systemic" or "instatutional" racism, does not seem to be the problem. It is a problem there is no doubt about that but it is not THE problem as a lot of people like to make it out to be. The biggest problem is drug laws that make criminality and thus violence the only viable choice in poor communities and it's why I've been a vocal advocate for a Portuguese style reform of criminal drug laws.

TL;DR version: I've not done much to fight against systemic racism in the US because I'm Canadian and because it statistically doesn't exist at rates high enough to qualify as anything close to systemic. Though much like how this forum helped me change my mind on the death penalty I'm 100% willing to listen to counter arguments and have my mind changed.

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24-09-2017, 10:55 PM
RE: The Trump Impeachment Thread
(24-09-2017 09:46 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(24-09-2017 09:31 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  In some contexts and interpretations to kneel is to show nearly ultimate deference.

If kneeling is a sign of disrespect, why does that dragon lady keep telling Jon Snow to bend the knee?

Did you forget the cave scene with Ygritte? Wink

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25-09-2017, 12:39 AM
RE: The Trump Impeachment Thread
(24-09-2017 10:52 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  I've not done much to fight against systemic racism in the US because I'm Canadian and because it statistically doesn't exist at rates high enough to qualify as anything close to systemic. Though much like how this forum helped me change my mind on the death penalty I'm 100% willing to listen to counter arguments and have my mind changed.

This got very long, but I thought I would have a crack at changing your mind Wink This is a topic that interests me but I am by no means an expert, so please feel free to challenge my stuff too.

Your definition of what systemic racism is seems to be rather narrow? Systemic racism doesn't just mean racism perpetrated by police. It means a pervasive racism that is throughout society, in the same way that rape culture doesn't mean that every man is a rapist, but that rape is almost normalised in culture. The whole point of the systemic racism hypothesis is that it's hard to see - almost invisible, the people who perpetuate it are not even necessarily aware that they are doing so and many would even be horrified to be accused of so doing.

To give some concrete examples, systemic racism is exemplified by the study that was done a while ago, where researchers submitted the same CVs to companies in Silicon Valley, but changed the names - the identical CVs with a "black" name were rejected significantly more frequently than the same CV with a "white" name. This means that black people in that industry are systematically being denied economic opportunities. Possibly none of the people who did the discriminating were even aware of doing so.

Systemic discrimination can be found in the justice system - black people being incarcerated at an absurdly higher rate, receiving longer sentences for the same crimes, being arrested for trivial things and even dying because of them - there's the famous case a few years ago of a black woman being arrested for not indicating to turn and winding up hanged in her jail cell... that kind of thing happens a lot.

And in any case restricting to just police actions, while perhaps the genesis of the black lives matter movement is rooted in a case which doesn't actually support their cause (I'm taking your word for it), there have been numerous high profile cases (the most egregious of which is the Philando Castille case) where black men and women have been assaulted or killed by police and justice has either miscarried or at the very least not been seen to be served. This has eroded trust in the police in the communities they serve. When the response is to beef up the police force and give them more weapons, it just serves to deepen the divide. The community becomes a place where people are *kept in line* and dissension is punished. Oh yeah, and the police force is often largely white, while the community of the policed is largely black. In a country with an already deep racial divide, and where police disproportionately target black/hispanic minorities (Sherriff Joe Arpaio comes to mind), and where such behaviour is not only tolerated but encouraged by the top brass, including the president himself, I find it hard to say that there's no systemic racism in policing in the USA.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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25-09-2017, 04:22 AM
RE: The Trump Impeachment Thread
(25-09-2017 12:39 AM)morondog Wrote:  The whole point of the systemic racism hypothesis is that it's hard to see - almost invisible, the people who perpetuate it are not even necessarily aware that they are doing so and many would even be horrified to be accused of so doing.

To give some concrete examples, systemic racism is exemplified by the study that was done a while ago, where researchers submitted the same CVs to companies in Silicon Valley, but changed the names - the identical CVs with a "black" name were rejected significantly more frequently than the same CV with a "white" name. This means that black people in that industry are systematically being denied economic opportunities. Possibly none of the people who did the discriminating were even aware of doing so.
I live in a very liberal but not racially very diverse community, and even here, journalists found that the mothers of black children feel the need to systematically teach their children how to survive encounters with the police. My mother never had that conversation with me and I daresay most white anglo-saxon protestant people would concur with that. It wouldn't have entered her mind.

So systemic racism is both invisible to those who don't experience it, yet 100% real to those who do. I understand the sentiment -- what do we need to do to move past this, it's the 21st century, I hate no one, no one I know hates anyone, at what point does this become so much posturing and whining and holding onto the past?

What we should be weary of is not the complaints but the depth and breadth of racism such that it still has such a hold -- that even after the convulsions of the civil rights era it's still that entrenched. Our reaction must be to determine to change society for as long as it takes, because we aren't done yet. Denial is the wrong response.

Also this isn't just about African Americans, although I think they often get the worst and most obvious of it. It's about "bad hombres" as Trump puts it, aka Latinos, it's about muslim-Americans who are objectively some of our best educated and most prosperous and loyal and grateful citizens in America yet are expected to bear the cloud of suspicion for extremists, as if I had to apologize for and constantly disavow the pillaging of my Viking forebears, it's about people from India or Sikhs or anyone who can be mistaken for "terrorists" or who simply looks too "different". It's about handicapped people who don't "act right". And more.

No community becomes more diverse without lots of hard and sustained work. It isn't just the absence of conscious animus or overt violence. It's things like knowing and understanding other cultures, associating with groups that are, and seek to be more, diverse, etc. It's feeling a sense of solidarity with, rather than annoyance with, people expressing the pain of the racism they experience -- and believing them.
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25-09-2017, 06:00 AM
RE: The Trump Impeachment Thread
(24-09-2017 10:52 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  ...
Though much like how this forum helped me change my mind on the death penalty I'm 100% willing to listen to counter arguments and have my mind changed.

I found some of the stuff in this thread from RocDoc and others to be illuminating. From post #19.

For me, it added a cultural and historical context that the analysis of recent incidents and/or current crime stats does not reveal.

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25-09-2017, 06:28 AM
RE: The Trump Impeachment Thread
David Carr was shown on TV during the anthem and he had his eyes closed and looked like he was praying; so is it ok to pray during the anthem? I mean he was standing but he wasn't looking right at the flag and obviously wasnt singing along with the anthem.

I'm going to guess it was cool because Jebus.
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25-09-2017, 06:36 AM
RE: The Trump Impeachment Thread
(24-09-2017 01:43 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(24-09-2017 01:07 PM)morondog Wrote:  So what you're saying is it doesn't make corporate business sense to protest racism because the people who watch NFL are largely racist Smile Gotcha. Can't disturb the profits, those black guys should stick to getting shot by cops.

This is the same kind of bullshit that got Trump elected. But please, don't stop. I hope you guys keep doing this kind of stuff. Calling non racists a racist every single day guarantees to piss us off.

Just because we're against the manner in which these fools are protesting doesn't mean we're against what they're actually protesting. These guys have enough money to pay for commercials, radio spots or whatever to speak out. But to kneel during the national anthem is saying "fuck this country. We don't respect it until things change." Well fuck them. I can't change the 200 idiots in the KKK. I can't change the 10-20 cops that shoot unarmed black people every year. They're disrespecting the country, the military and their fans. So if they lose money it's on them. Protest all they want. I'll probably still watch my team on Monday night football tomorrow. If any Cardinals players protest during the anthem I'll know who's jersey not to buy. I'm not as hardcore against it as some people.

All I'm saying is some people are really going to fully boycott. If that's a large enough group to cost them money remains to be seen.

Isn't saying make America great Again... detailing I don't think it is now anymore... saying the same thing?

Does it not come off that way to you. I guess people who truly did support that idea don't see the direct connection despite one deliberately saying it is ungreat and needs change into ways that used to exist, which also lacks respect.

It's a stupid stunt to place players out to say it anyway and as idiotic as the pledge of alliegence at schools. I had stopped saying that or caring for the forced activity after a while in school because indulging forced patriotism is counter to the point of the country.

It's not even to stop cops from doing it which isn't possible... but to stop them from avoiding punishment which is what happens.

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25-09-2017, 07:31 AM
RE: The Trump Impeachment Thread
(24-09-2017 10:52 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Oh, I agree it's not necessary but if you want to look like you're doing something you should actually do something especially when you have the means and ability to do something substantive. You can kneel during as many anthems as you like but if that's all you do it's hallow as far as I'm concerned, it's the desire to look like you're helping without actually helping.
I take your point, but I also think this sort of thing is highly symbolic and symbolism matters. The mind deals in symbols, especially the unconscious. A spontaneous corporate ritual like this can be very powerful in inspiring people to become invested and involved in more substantive ways. I agree that if it stops with some easy gesture it's not going to move the needle. But I think people doing something - anything active and concrete is a step in the right direction, compared to just grousing or whining or shaking your head in disgust and then pushing it away from your awareness. Or even participating by just demonizing those who don't agree with you. Yes, it's satisfying to mutter about knuckle-draggers and yokels and think of them as mindless automatons. But that doesn't get at the root of the problem. It isn't just for MAGA fanatics to recognize our shared humanity and pain and fear -- it's for us, too.
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25-09-2017, 09:15 AM
RE: The Trump Impeachment Thread
(25-09-2017 06:36 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Isn't saying make America great Again... detailing I don't think it is now anymore... saying the same thing?

Personal introspection and a healthy grasp of irony are not the strong suit of the Alt-Right.

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