The Truth About Mass Shootings in Australia...
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16-05-2018, 04:12 AM
Exclamation The Truth About Mass Shootings in Australia...
 
 
 The Father Usually Did It

It should be noted straight off that this bloke held a shooter's license, and his three long guns were registered.
So rather than wanting to specifically start another pro- versus ant-gun debate, I'd rather discuss the reasons why Peter Miles—according to the kids' father Aaron Cockman—apparently "did not snap" but had been "thinking this through for a long time".

Further, Cockman said: "All these kids died peacefully (!) in their beds. The police officer that went through, said they looked all peaceful.
How the hell Peter did that I still can't figure out, but if someone did it... he did a good job, he did a really good job".

He also bizarrely said: "If it had not been for Peter, he wouldn’t have had his children. So it’s not some random guy off the street who's taken them away from me.
He gave them to me and now he’s taken them away".

—Obviously incipient insanity runs in both families.

So the question is; what drives an apparently happily married, mature family man, with no obvious indicators of prior mental dysfunction to act so brutally, particularly against his own grandchildren? Is it—as media commentators are suggesting—a case of a man who mistakenly believes he's the sole, exclusive "protector" of his family believing that he's become incapable (for whatever reasons) of doing so, and therefore thinks that without his protection, his family will suffer unduly, and that they'll be better off out of this dangerous world?

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16-05-2018, 05:13 AM
RE: The Truth About Mass Shootings in Australia...
A rational mind can' t truely comprehend an irrational one.

When you get to the point where you can, you' re probably ready for a rubber room yourself.

....

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16-05-2018, 05:20 AM
RE: The Truth About Mass Shootings in Australia...
Eh I really disagree with calling a domestic incident a "mass shooting". A mass shooting occurs in a public place, this was at a private residence by a family member that lived at the residence.

As for Aaron Cockman's comments - the guy has just lost his kids and this is clearly a part of the grieving process for him. I don't agree that his father in-law was a "good guy". But I don't think you should attack him, that's well out of line - he didn't kill anyone. I don't think he's insane, he may be mistaken, there may be stuff we don't know about him, but putting labels on him like that is just wrong.

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16-05-2018, 05:29 AM
RE: The Truth About Mass Shootings in Australia...
(16-05-2018 04:12 AM)SYZ Wrote:   
 
 The Father Usually Did It

It should be noted straight off that this bloke held a shooter's license, and his three long guns were registered.
So rather than wanting to specifically start another pro- versus ant-gun debate, I'd rather discuss the reasons why Peter Miles—according to the kids' father Aaron Cockman—apparently "did not snap" but had been "thinking this through for a long time".

Further, Cockman said: "All these kids died peacefully (!) in their beds. The police officer that went through, said they looked all peaceful.
How the hell Peter did that I still can't figure out, but if someone did it... he did a good job, he did a really good job".

He also bizarrely said: "If it had not been for Peter, he wouldn’t have had his children. So it’s not some random guy off the street who's taken them away from me.
He gave them to me and now he’s taken them away".

—Obviously incipient insanity runs in both families.

So the question is; what drives an apparently happily married, mature family man, with no obvious indicators of prior mental dysfunction to act so brutally, particularly against his own grandchildren? Is it—as media commentators are suggesting—a case of a man who mistakenly believes he's the sole, exclusive "protector" of his family believing that he's become incapable (for whatever reasons) of doing so, and therefore thinks that without his protection, his family will suffer unduly, and that they'll be better off out of this dangerous world?

The article points out that most shooting deaths are suicides, and I'd theorize that in these patriarchal situations, that's still the case, at least from the POV of the murderer. He thinks of his family as an extension of himself. He alone is the provider, and their survival without him is as unthinkable as his liver or his foot continuing to live after the brain and heart stop. Therefore, when he kills himself, he kills them as well.

The father as the earthly god of the family, with the moral authority of life and death over other members, is an organizing principle in some of the more vile sects of Christianity. Unfortunately there's not always a lamb in the thicket.

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16-05-2018, 06:09 AM
RE: The Truth About Mass Shootings in Australia...
(16-05-2018 04:12 AM)SYZ Wrote:  He also bizarrely said: "If it had not been for Peter, he wouldn’t have had his children. So it’s not some random guy off the street who's taken them away from me. He gave them to me and now he’s taken them away".

Note the statistics in the article about the number of people killed by guns in 2016. 238 of which 183 are suicide.

I don't believe there is a gun debate any more. America is a fucked up place even with all the freedoms we have; which I think we have too much freedom in some areas.

The other statistic is that there seems to be a mental health issue with remote people and that farms are twice as likely to kill themselves as any person in a city. This would be similar to Alaska, which has the second highest number of suicides with Montana being number one.

CDC Suicide Map

So this isn't a gun issue.
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16-05-2018, 06:47 AM
RE: The Truth About Mass Shootings in Australia...
(16-05-2018 06:09 AM)digitalbeachbum Wrote:  CDC Suicide Map

So this isn't a gun issue.

I think what you're pointing to shows a mixed cause. Mental health is a problem for suicide, but so is access to firearms. Firearm suicides have something like a 90% mortality rate, where overall suicide mortality is around 12%. From what I understand, suicide tends to be a transient thing, and most people don't immediately try again if they fail the first time.

So, I think it's mixed. We have to deal with mental health, but having readily accessible ways to easily commit suicide means people are way less likely to get the help they need, as they succeed the first time.
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16-05-2018, 07:44 AM
RE: The Truth About Mass Shootings in Australia...
I get the patriarchal thing - I can kind of relate because one of my small dogs is special needs and reacts negatively to being handled by strangers - I think on some level he understands that his spine must always be straight and fully supported or severe pain and several months of remaining motionless ensue. (Just one of his handicaps).

So the thought has crossed my mind that I probably should have him put down if my own death is imminent...

This guy must have had the same protective feeling, but exaggerated so badly that it included his healthy grand children. The instinct to take care of yours gone awry....

Evolution is always pushing the envelope - endowing people with different amounts of various traits to see what works best.

That means that there are and always will be people with abnormal instincts and reactions of all sorts.

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16-05-2018, 08:49 AM
RE: The Truth About Mass Shootings in Australia...
(16-05-2018 06:47 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  From what I understand, suicide tends to be a transient thing, and most people don't immediately try again if they fail the first time.

You cannot lump suicides together like that.

Firstly, people who failed at suicide need to recoup from the trauma of surviving and having to deal with the fall out before they try again, and they have to find a better way. The time gap in no way means that they suddenly acquired the joy of life.

Yes, the majority of people who try to commit suicide while still a teen or during child bearing years do so because of transient issues and may well recoup.

But older folk and people with persistent health issues very often commit rational suicide - life has turned into torture for a variety of reasons. We all have different capacities of bearing pain, and while some are content to have a visit to the bathroom be the highlight of their day, others will find the hours of their lives to be torture to pass.

Taking the option to exit at their own discretion away from people is taking away their rights to their own life. You can clamp down on suicides and provide mental health care to people who do it because of transient issues, but not before you pass laws that allow death with dignity to those who choose to exit rationally. Forcing someone to live through what they perceive as torture is - well - torture. Even if it doesn't look like that to you.

I am lucky to live in a state that supports death with dignity and will certainly be taking the exit when my life ceases to be enjoyable and there is no chance of improvement anymore.

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16-05-2018, 09:55 AM
RE: The Truth About Mass Shootings in Australia...
(16-05-2018 04:12 AM)SYZ Wrote:   
 
 The Father Usually Did It

It should be noted straight off that this bloke held a shooter's license, and his three long guns were registered.
So rather than wanting to specifically start another pro- versus ant-gun debate, I'd rather discuss the reasons why Peter Miles—according to the kids' father Aaron Cockman—apparently "did not snap" but had been "thinking this through for a long time".

Further, Cockman said: "All these kids died peacefully (!) in their beds. The police officer that went through, said they looked all peaceful.
How the hell Peter did that I still can't figure out, but if someone did it... he did a good job, he did a really good job".

He also bizarrely said: "If it had not been for Peter, he wouldn’t have had his children. So it’s not some random guy off the street who's taken them away from me.
He gave them to me and now he’s taken them away".

—Obviously incipient insanity runs in both families.

So the question is; what drives an apparently happily married, mature family man, with no obvious indicators of prior mental dysfunction to act so brutally, particularly against his own grandchildren? Is it—as media commentators are suggesting—a case of a man who mistakenly believes he's the sole, exclusive "protector" of his family believing that he's become incapable (for whatever reasons) of doing so, and therefore thinks that without his protection, his family will suffer unduly, and that they'll be better off out of this dangerous world?

UGGGGGG,

"The real issue is mental health".......

Um no, it does not matter why someone snaps, be it mental health, domestic abuse, political or religious motivations. What Australia put it's foot down on was access.

I agree that mental health should be funded, but it is still meaningless if all one has to do to own a firearm is have no record.

The myth in America is that "legal at time of buy" means nobody ever goes on to do something stupid after the legal buy.

The majority of firearm injuries and deaths happen in the home.\

Suicides are #1
Domestic abuse is #2
Accidental with especially kids is #3.

There is a stupid mythology held by far too many in America that merely owning a firearm will produce a Hollywood ending where John Wayne and Dirty harry always defeat the bad guy.

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16-05-2018, 10:02 AM
RE: The Truth About Mass Shootings in Australia...
(16-05-2018 08:49 AM)Dom Wrote:  You cannot lump suicides together like that.

Firstly, people who failed at suicide need to recoup from the trauma of surviving and having to deal with the fall out before they try again, and they have to find a better way. The time gap in no way means that they suddenly acquired the joy of life.

Yes, the majority of people who try to commit suicide while still a teen or during child bearing years do so because of transient issues and may well recoup.

That's exactly what I'm getting at. Having more time to get help is better than having no time because the person was immediately successful.


(16-05-2018 08:49 AM)Dom Wrote:  But older folk and people with persistent health issues very often commit rational suicide - life has turned into torture for a variety of reasons. We all have different capacities of bearing pain, and while some are content to have a visit to the bathroom be the highlight of their day, others will find the hours of their lives to be torture to pass.

Taking the option to exit at their own discretion away from people is taking away their rights to their own life. You can clamp down on suicides and provide mental health care to people who do it because of transient issues, but not before you pass laws that allow death with dignity to those who choose to exit rationally. Forcing someone to live through what they perceive as torture is - well - torture. Even if it doesn't look like that to you.

I am lucky to live in a state that supports death with dignity and will certainly be taking the exit when my life ceases to be enjoyable and there is no chance of improvement anymore.

I agree, but these are separate issues. They aren't mutually exclusive. I would hope that no person has to resort to a gun to end their own life.
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