The Truth about Organic Farming
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07-10-2014, 10:51 AM (This post was last modified: 07-10-2014 11:00 AM by Mathilda.)
RE: The Truth about Organic Farming
(07-10-2014 10:35 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  
Matilda Wrote:it's often started by people trying to convince themselves that their desire not to spend extra money on organic food can be rationally justified and don't want to think that they may be wrong.
Sounds like something that can easily be applied to either side of the argument. No?

I'm not trying to convince anyone that organic is right or wrong for them. I have made a personal decision for myself after considering my own circumstances.

I was trying to find the right way of expressing it and I may have failed. What I was getting at was the idea that humans rationally justify decisions after they are made and that it is the fear of being wrong that drives people to convince others.

A rational decision has to take into account your personal circumstances. If you're desperately trying to feed a large family on a very limited budget then you could make a very rational case for prioritising nutritional content or quantity over organic for example. My point is that it's not up to me or anyone else to say that doing so is right or wrong.
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07-10-2014, 10:53 AM
RE: The Truth about Organic Farming
There is no proof either way because most things pertaining to the effects of food additives on human health are not studied.

The above study is somewhat dishonest IMO, for instance, yes, organic growers do on occasion resort to organic pesticides. However, this is done very infrequently, as the bugs adapt quickly, rendering said pesticides useless. So that is reserved for emergencies. Also, these pesticides also kill the good bugs (bugs that eat pests) and are hence not useful in general as organic gardening relies on nature to do the policing of the crops.

That invalidates at least one point made, and I am not going to research the rest of the study. Would be interesting to ferret out the original benefactor paying for this study.

Anyway, there is no proof either way. You take a lesser risk going organic, since we know evolution has shaped us to do well with that.

Additives are the big unknown. More risky.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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07-10-2014, 10:58 AM
RE: The Truth about Organic Farming
(07-10-2014 08:04 AM)Adrianime Wrote:  Nice! I've been dodging overpriced food items with no proven benefit (aka "organic" foods) for years. From time to time I run into a friend who sings the praises of organic, but still I've never been convinced it's worth the extra dollar.


I have a friend who has worked on organic farms in the fields doing the grunt work. They use pesticides which are supposedly safer, many of which haven't been tested thoroughly in long term studies. He has worked on organic farms and not organic farms for several years in different parts of the country. Says the difference between the two isn't substantial. ((shrugs shoulders))

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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07-10-2014, 11:03 AM (This post was last modified: 07-10-2014 11:07 AM by Mathilda.)
RE: The Truth about Organic Farming
Also some additives will be harmful, others won't be. The wider the variety of additives added to your food the more chance there is of ingesting something detrimental to your health. Going organic is one way to help minimise the chance of this happening. Or being subject to other food scares for example, like BSE coming about because it was cheaper for farmers to feed cows to each other.
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07-10-2014, 11:06 AM
RE: The Truth about Organic Farming
(07-10-2014 10:58 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I have a friend who has worked on organic farms in the fields doing the grunt work. They use pesticides which are supposedly safer, many of which haven't been tested thoroughly in long term studies. He has worked on organic farms and not organic farms for several years in different parts of the country. Says the difference between the two isn't substantial. ((shrugs shoulders))

I've heard farmers and other people doing grunt work say this but my question is, how do they know? Are they scientists doing long term studies on their consumers? Are they professionally trained biologists and chemists? No, they're only concerned with whether it reduces pests and diseases and the produce that they can sell.
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07-10-2014, 11:08 AM
RE: The Truth about Organic Farming
Yes, this is why I'd rather bake a cake from scratch (or just about anything else from real ingrients) than ever buy a mix.

Yes, it takes longer to do that. It is far easier to go to the shelf and get the box or jar.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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07-10-2014, 11:12 AM
RE: The Truth about Organic Farming
Plus, all things chemical interact with all other things chemical. We have not the slightest notion how all these additives interact in our bodies.

We also do not know how they interact with personal health risks. What doesn't make 1000 people sick, may make you sick. If your genes are predisposed to be vulnerable to cancer for instance, any additive or combination of additives may or may not be a trigger, we do not know.

I keep coming back to a lack of evidence that additives are safe.

If you can't prove all of the above to me, I ain't eating the additives (or avoid them the best I can). Tongue

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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07-10-2014, 11:15 AM
RE: The Truth about Organic Farming
(07-10-2014 07:22 AM)Dom Wrote:  In this situation, you could liken my position to that of an agnostic.no

I know that we can eat countless items that occur on this earth. My ancestors have eaten them for centuries and centuries. We have evolved to utilize them well and extract useful nutrients.

I know that there are items that are deadly to much smaller animals than us, and of which we would have to consume huge volumes to be affected. We have also been exposed to these for centuries and are well adapted to deal with them.

I know that everything gets eaten by something else (has natural enemies).

I know that food additives and their interactions with each other, as well as their effect on predispositions by individuals for human diseases have NOT been tested at all.

I consider pesticides as food additive, since you can't really wash them off effectively, and with GMO foods, they are intrinsic to the plant.

Hence, I take a much lesser risk with my health if I eat organic foods.

I take it even further and grow my own for the most part - which is where the taste comes in. I can grow varieties that are infinitely more flavorful than supermarket grade hybrids or GMOs, they will never be in supermarkets because they have fragile skins or do not ripen up when separated from the mother plant. I get to get superior flavor because I use varieties developed for flavor for centuries, and I get to eat them at the perfectly ripened stage.

There is no proof that food additives cause cancer (except in the case of some coloring additives, which are still in use in the US) because nobody has a financial interest in conducting studies regarding this. The lack of studies is very disconcerting to me. What studies we do have are financed by the producers of crops that contain additives, or convenience foods with additives. Nothing objective that I have seen.

I value my health, the older you get the more you do that. Hence I shy away from things that may have unknown effects on it. Not to mention that I love good flavors....

I don't even use organic pesticides, they lose effectiveness fairly soon and I reserve this in case I ever get a catastrophe in my garden. So far non use of killing agents has allowed the good bugs to proliferate enough to reduce the bad bugs to a negligible number. All is well in my garden and with my health, and I love the tastes of my food.

I am not saying that any food additives or GMOs are necessarily bad for your health, I am saying we don't know. Show me studies of interactions between additives, long term use of additives and interactions of additives with known health issues of individuals, and I will change my mind.


Really great post, Dom.

We buy organic and will contunue to do so.
I made sure to read the comments on that article. Some organic ffarmers spoke up!

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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07-10-2014, 11:21 AM
RE: The Truth about Organic Farming
(07-10-2014 10:58 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  I have a friend who has worked on organic farms in the fields doing the grunt work. They use pesticides which are supposedly safer, many of which haven't been tested thoroughly in long term studies. He has worked on organic farms and not organic farms for several years in different parts of the country. Says the difference between the two isn't substantial. ((shrugs shoulders))

It has become obvious in the last 5 years or so that organic pesticides lose effectiveness if used regularly. Any farm that uses them routinely won't be farming organic for long.

The difference between organic pesticides and non organic ones is that the effect of organic pesticides on humans are either non-existent (the praying Mantisses I released in my garden last spring may bite the heads of their suitors off, but they have no effect on me whatsoever) or are natural compounds like pyrethrin, which occurs naturally in common garden flowers and humans have been exposed to it for centuries.

A lot of organic gardening depends heavily on keeping the balance of predators and prey in your garden. The pests that harm plants are generally prey to predators who gobble them up. When you use any killing substance, you kill both. Now you HAVE to either use killer products or replenish the population.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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07-10-2014, 11:40 AM
RE: The Truth about Organic Farming



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