The Tyrant God.
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04-04-2012, 05:42 PM
The Tyrant God.
If one wishes to contemplate the nature/existence of God based purely on power then the quest is made much more simple. Unfortunately, if we remove the other common notion of God as being perfectly good, we are left with a powerful and malevolent experimenter. The experimenter may not be totally depraved ; it may well be seeking better ways, but this conflicts with the idea of God, in order to be God, needing to know everything.......past, present, and future, a fantastic idea beyond our comprehension.

Some religious apologists suggest that God's power in creating automatons in his image, and unfortunates destined for a permanent existence in Hell is fine and dandy just because the"loving father" can do it. Thus in one fell swoop God is turned into a diabolical ogre and cannot sanely be referred to as God at all.

If we hold that God has given us free will this also comes across as a contradiction in terms; free will within a divinely planned system simply being options within a definitive pre ordained plan.This leaves us with a capricious powerful God who simply imposes itself, willy nilly ,on humanity for bizarre and unknown reasons.

Admittedly some Christians such as the Progs and Sea of Faith, the latter inspired by the writings of Jack Spong and Don Cupid have attempted to utilize some Christian metaphors constructively while negating the heaps of rubbish.
Others sadly believe God being God in(their view) is above sane human judgement and must be adored in the hope that they,his lackeys, will hopefully keep on track. I see this as a pompous misguided elitism.......

I am unable to deny the possibility of higher ethical cosmic forces as well as perhaps lower ones. In 2012, we far from know it all. However contemplation relevant to potentialities is far removed actions perpetrated to enforce faith (another contradiction in terms) and have decent people prostrate themselves before weird, unfounded, and dangerous directives.
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05-04-2012, 06:35 PM (This post was last modified: 05-04-2012 10:21 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: The Tyrant God.
(04-04-2012 05:42 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  If one wishes to contemplate the nature/existence of God based purely on power then the quest is made much more simple. Unfortunately, if we remove the other common notion of God as being perfectly good, we are left with a powerful and malevolent experimenter. The experimenter may not be totally depraved ; ...

True, the experimenter need not be depraved for the experiment to be. But to give me free will (which is itself highly suspect) for the sole purpose of probing me to see if I will voluntarily restrict it for some bullshit promise of a postmortem preservation of identity which it surely knows it can't deliver on anyway reeks of depravity. That God's like some bored, twisted kid with a midday sun and a magnifying glass just dicking with ants in an anthill.

Breathing - it's more art than science.
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05-04-2012, 10:33 PM
RE: The Tyrant God.
(05-04-2012 06:35 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(04-04-2012 05:42 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  If one wishes to contemplate the nature/existence of God based purely on power then the quest is made much more simple. Unfortunately, if we remove the other common notion of God as being perfectly good, we are left with a powerful and malevolent experimenter. The experimenter may not be totally depraved ; ...
Point taken Girly.
(05-04-2012 06:35 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  What you say certainly seems applicable to the way Judaeo / Christianity is understood. My position is one of contemplating ethical nuances possibly ensconced universally.
(05-04-2012 06:35 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  As for personal identity continuing forever, that's frightening and appears as totally remote.
(05-04-2012 06:35 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  True, the experimenter need not be depraved for the experiment to be. But to give me free will (which is itself highly suspect) for the sole purpose of probing me to see if I will voluntarily restrict it for some bullshit promise of a postmortem preservation of identity which it surely knows it can't deliver on anyway reeks of depravity. That God's like some bored, twisted kid with a midday sun and a magnifying glass just dicking with ants in an anthill.
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05-04-2012, 11:40 PM (This post was last modified: 05-04-2012 11:46 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: The Tyrant God.
(05-04-2012 10:33 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  As for personal identity continuing forever, that's frightening and appears as totally remote.

I agree. That is every bit as frightening as it is remote.

(05-04-2012 10:33 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  My position is one of contemplating ethical nuances possibly ensconced universally.

Good luck getting from ∃ to ∀. ...

Hell, good luck gettin' to ∃ brother. Wink

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06-04-2012, 01:15 AM
RE: The Tyrant God.
(05-04-2012 11:40 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(05-04-2012 10:33 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  As for personal identity continuing forever, that's frightening and appears as totally remote.

I agree. That is every bit as frightening as it is remote.

(05-04-2012 10:33 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  My position is one of contemplating ethical nuances possibly ensconced universally.

Good luck getting from ∃ to ∀. ...

Hell, good luck gettin' to ∃ brother. Wink
Hey I didn't know you wrote in symbolic logic.
My keyboard doesn't have "something v 'everything'. Smartass
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06-04-2012, 01:47 AM (This post was last modified: 06-04-2012 01:52 AM by GirlyMan.)
RE: The Tyrant God.
(06-04-2012 01:15 AM)Mr Woof Wrote:  
(05-04-2012 11:40 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I agree. That is every bit as frightening as it is remote.


Good luck getting from ∃ to ∀. ...

Hell, good luck gettin' to ∃ brother. Wink
Hey I didn't know you wrote in symbolic logic.
My keyboard doesn't have "something v 'everything'. Smartass

Just copy and paste from here. Wink

Breathing - it's more art than science.
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06-04-2012, 02:20 AM (This post was last modified: 06-04-2012 02:23 AM by Logisch.)
RE: The Tyrant God.
The idea of the god portrayed in the abrahamic religion is that he seems to me an evil, jealous, hateful, spiteful god who is also a hypocrite.

For instance, back then if you call someone a bald head, yahweh will get pissed, say how dare you and then send angry bears to come maul your children and kill them to teach them a lesson.

I can think of much worse things that 99% of the population has called another person besides a bald head in regards to disrespecting/mocking elders. In jest surely, but nonetheless, worse than baldhead. By this thought, pretty much all of us should be expecting bears to jump out of the woods and maul us to death for doing so.

God knows everything, but feels it necessary to test abraham to see if he would actually kill his son? This never made sense to me. If you know everything before it happens and the ultimate fate of mankind and how things play out because you're an all knowing being... WHY do you need to test people to see if they'll do something. You should... ya know... know it already.

God: Hey abraham.
Abraham: Sup?
God: Kill your son for me *trollface*
Abraham: LOLOK
God: OH Shit you really did it? LOL that's funny. Ok you're cool in my book.
Abraham: LOL god, you silly goose. Testing me and all.
God: Gotta know who is legit in these times man. Seriously.

What?

Then I've got beef with the mass amounts of things that says he's a loving god, a forgiving god..... and then turns around and says he is a jealous god and he'll basically turn around and curse you for generations for doing stuff.

Loving god
1 Peter 5:6-7 Humble yourselves, therefore, under the mighty hand of God so that at the proper time he may exalt you, casting all your anxieties on him, because he cares for you.

Proverbs 8:17 I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.

Angry god
2 Kings 17:18 Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel and removed them out of his sight. None was left but the tribe of Judah only.

Exodus 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, But I lavish unfailing love for a thousand generations on those who love me and obey my commands.

Jealous god
Deuteronomy 4:24 For the lord your god is a consuming fire, a jealous god.

This is of course my own interpretation. Essentially the way I always thought of it is: If there is a creator (imagine there is for a moment)... capable of creating everything in the universe. Capable of creating life in whatever fashion it may be. Capable of creating things as complex such as the working rules of physics, cosmology, things that we would later discover.... why in the world would he have the emotional equivalent of jealousy, anger, resentment, disappointment and things as primitive as knee-jerk reactions, wiping out millions of people and of course asking people to do stuff like kill their own children to "prove stuff" to him.

Wouldn't you for a moment imagine... there would be something far more amazing, more complex, more unimaginably magnificent that wouldn't have the primitive emotional level of a teenage kid? I mean, often times when I look at this stuff I think - "Seriously?" on some of the stories in the bible. Then I look at some of the philosophy and think "Yeah that has a good message at least." but I just don't think it's consistent enough to describe an actual god that would exist.

Then we get into the issues of translation from languages down the line and what we actually would see as a bible nowadays and I'm sure the message of translation in what these stories actually entailed a long time ago were like and that we're playing the 2nd grade game of pass the word and we're about 20th in the circle and have no idea what the original was so we're thousands of denominations in.

If something is so infallable... why would it be something that can be so easily shredded in words. Why something as temporary and easily manipulated as a book. If this god creature is so capable as to tell the future, perform amazing things and know what happens, why ask for people to do things to "test" them? Why have to appear to people in bushes, why would you have to do weird things like that. Why be disappointed in your creation, you created them imperfect, now you're pissed at them for doing something you knew would happen so you damn them for all eternity? What the fuck?

Step 1. Create imperfect beings
Step 2. Put tasty fruit in garden
Step 3. Don't create critical thinking and rational thought for imperfect beings, leave them naive without understanding the consequences of their actions
Step 4. Tell beings not to eat fruit because you say so.
Step 5. Let satan trollolol
Step 6. Get mad, punish beings for all eternity because you created them knowing they'd do it anyway but you were disappointed they did what you knew they'd do in the first place so go ahead and let them continue populating planet and send mostly all of them to hell for all eternity for being what you knew they'd be anyway, get mad at them multiple times, kill some of them, then get disappointed in them again, wipe them out in a giant flood, continue damning them all to hell, get pissed, send your son, kill your son, tell them if they follow him it's all good, send most of them to hell anyway, make sure everything they need to do is translated into a bajillion different languages in a book that keeps changing and is never the original content from a bunch of hearsay accounts that no one can hold credibly verifiable, still send them to hell if they don't believe.
Step 7. All in a day's work.

At least I think I got that right. At least that's my assumption of how it goes if god "knows everything"...
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06-04-2012, 05:07 PM
RE: The Tyrant God.
Yes Logisch.What you say and worse can be found particularly in the O.T.

Consider the Jewish Passover (they still celebrate it) where God commands all non Egyptians to leave a sign on their homes so he will know not destroy them.So much for his all knowing capabilities.

Judaism. Christianity, and Islam are based on the words, allegedly passed on to seers and wise men, and when gets down to the worst of the nitty gritty the craziness becomes really obvious.
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