The U.S. Electoral College: A travesty of democracy
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03-10-2012, 04:24 PM (This post was last modified: 03-10-2012 04:37 PM by Thomas.)
RE: The U.S. Electoral College: A travesty of democracy
(03-10-2012 11:45 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I thought that the idea that the electors changed Florida has been proven false.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Stat...tion,_2000
If Gore had asked for a statewide recount, the electors would have gone to him.
The Supreme Court handed it to their crony. Just as with the Kennedy assassination, the Right Wing changed the government, and shoved it down the throats of the people.
BTW, my personal rant, is "why the fuck do ONLY 18 y.o. males have to STILL register for the Selective Service System ?".

No. Independent research shows it 600 plus for Bush. Just WIKI it. The Supreme Court would have allowed a full recount. Gore didn't want that so he took his ball and went home.

Interestingly the "right wing" wants to reduce the size and power of the federal government. Would only seem logical that the "left wing" is more inclined to shove government down our throats. Liberals believe that only legitimate purpose of government is to press a liberal agenda. When it pushes a right wing agenda it is evil. You can't have your fucking cake and eat it to. Build the government up to an overwhelming position over the people and the next thing you know you've got Adolf running the show. Ask the Germans how that worked out.

Be careful of what you ask for from the government, they will give it to you...with a HEAVY price. Your freedom.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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03-10-2012, 04:29 PM
RE: The U.S. Electoral College: Dissenting Opinion
(03-10-2012 03:25 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(03-10-2012 11:35 AM)cufflink Wrote:  Yes, I've seen those arguments. For me, they pale into insignificance before one basic principle: in a democracy, it's supposed to be one person, one vote. Doesn't matter if you're part of the minority or the majority, or if you live in a big city or in the middle of nowhere. One person, one vote. No one's vote should count more or less than anyone else's. That's what's subverted by the Electoral College.

The U.S.A. is not a democracy, it is a constitutional republic. Get over it.

absolutely correct. A Representative Republic to be more specific. The EC is there to protect the minority vote. There was then (1776) and now the idea that the big states will steamroll the smaller less populated.

If there were not so many "party loyal ideologues" you would see the candidates all over the country.

All and all we have a fairly good system. The proof is that we're not shooting at each other.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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04-10-2012, 12:25 PM
RE: The U.S. Electoral College: Dissenting Opinion
(03-10-2012 04:29 PM)Thomas Wrote:  
(03-10-2012 03:25 PM)Chas Wrote:  The U.S.A. is not a democracy, it is a constitutional republic. Get over it.

absolutely correct. A Representative Republic to be more specific. The EC is there to protect the minority vote. There was then (1776) and now the idea that the big states will steamroll the smaller less populated.

If there were not so many "party loyal ideologues" you would see the candidates all over the country.

All and all we have a fairly good system. The proof is that we're not shooting at each other.

The U.S.A. is a democracy (or at least it's supposed to be). A democracy is defined as "government by the people, who rule either directly, as through town meetings and referendums, or indirectly, through freely elected representatives." It's not a direct democracy, it's a representative one. But it's still a democracy.

But that's not relevant to the EC. EC electors are not like members of Congress, who are elected by the people to represent us and use their best judgment in matters of legislation. Electors are intermediaries--essentially, puppets--pledged to vote for a particular candidate. They exercise no judgment on their own. Apples and oranges.

The U.S. is a country of majority rule with minority rights. As a member of several minorities myself, I'm all for that. But the way to protect minorities is not by saying to them, "Your votes count a little more than the other guys'." It's the job of the judiciary to determine if anyone's rights have been violated. This isn't supposed to be Animal Farm, where everyone is equal but some are more equal than others.

You can argue about Florida in 2000 until you're blue in the face--the "butterfly ballot," hanging chads, what the Supremes did or didn't do, whether Gore should have hung in there and demanded a recount. But one way or the other, it was only a matter of several hundred votes. Nationwide, Gore bested Bush by more than half a million votes! Somebody gets half a million more votes than the other guy and still loses? Sorry, but that's fucked.

This discussion has led me to change my mind in one respect. I was under the impression that the fix was relatively straightforward. I thought the problem lay in the fact that almost all states have this winner-take-all method of determining electoral votes, which is not stipulated in the Constitution. So the fix, I thought, would simply be to have electors chosen in proportion to the popular vote in the state. And that wouldn't require any change to the Constitution.

So to confirm that, I did an experiment. I found the details of the state-by-state voting in 2000 here, transferred the data to an Excel spreadsheet, and played around with the numbers. I wanted to prove to myself that if the electoral votes had been awarded on a proportional basis rather than winner-take-all, Gore would have won. It did in fact turn out that way--just barely. But I saw problems I hadn't anticipated, having to do with rounding errors and the fact that you can't have a fraction of an elector. For example, what do you do with New Mexico's 5 electoral votes? That state cast 598,605 votes: Bush 286,417 (47.85%); Gore 286,783 (47.91%); Other 25,405 (4.24%). How do you divide up the 5 electoral votes proportionally? You can't say Bush 2 1/2, Gore 2 1/2. But if one is 3 and the other 2, that implies a 60-40 split, which was far from the case.

As for the fact we're not shooting at each other--yes, that's a good thing. But it's a pretty low bar. I expect more from my country than just that.

The whole Electoral College needs to be scrapped. This isn't 1776 or 1789. It's 2012. Time to practice what we preach about democracy.

Religious disputes are like arguments in a madhouse over which inmate really is Napoleon.
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04-10-2012, 01:17 PM
RE: The U.S. Electoral College: A travesty of democracy
The US has a federal constitutional republic form of government with a representative democratic political system.

Like the UK's form of government is a constitutional monarchy with a parliamentary democratic political system.

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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04-10-2012, 01:49 PM
RE: The U.S. Electoral College: A travesty of democracy
(04-10-2012 01:17 PM)kim Wrote:  The US has a federal constitutional republic form of government with a representative democratic political system.

Like the UK's form of government is a constitutional monarchy with a parliamentary democratic political system.

Dumb Brits. Drinking Beverage

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04-10-2012, 04:14 PM
RE: The U.S. Electoral College: A travesty of democracy
(03-10-2012 04:24 PM)Thomas Wrote:  No. Independent research shows it 600 plus for Bush. Just WIKI it. The Supreme Court would have allowed a full recount. Gore didn't want that so he took his ball and went home.

Interestingly the "right wing" wants to reduce the size and power of the federal government. Would only seem logical that the "left wing" is more inclined to shove government down our throats. Liberals believe that only legitimate purpose of government is to press a liberal agenda. When it pushes a right wing agenda it is evil. You can't have your fucking cake and eat it to. Build the government up to an overwhelming position over the people and the next thing you know you've got Adolf running the show. Ask the Germans how that worked out.

Be careful of what you ask for from the government, they will give it to you...with a HEAVY price. Your freedom.

That's where I GOT it.
"However, had the Gore campaign asked for and received a statewide recount, the same research indicates that Gore would have probably won the recount by about 100 votes statewide, consequently giving him Florida's electoral votes and victory in the Presidential election."

The Right Wing want's government so small it fits in women's vagina, and my bedroom. Tongue

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04-10-2012, 11:40 PM
RE: The U.S. Electoral College: A travesty of democracy
Thomas hit the nail on the head Bowing, sorry cufflink, democracies are a terrible idea, and though you may hear virtually ever democrat and republican praise our democracy, they are not really advocating that that is what we are, or what we should move toward. Democracies are always short-lived, violent, and immoral. It is a system of greed, where minorities (not racial per se, any minority) are abused, used, and trod upon. Our Representative Constitutional Republic is the best system of government I have come across yet. It is true that there are democratic parts to our form of government though, but it is done intelligently. Ideally we would have no government at all because governments are inherently immoral, but unfortunately they are necessary. As for Popular vote V. Electrol College, I have mixed feelings about both. Both have pro's and con's, and I'm not sure which outweigh which. One ensures every vote is representing the voters feelings, but the other ensures that minorities aren't politically ignored. Perhaps I will do more reading and comeback with an answer

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05-10-2012, 02:16 AM
RE: The U.S. Electoral College: A travesty of democracy
It's a bit horrifying that users (and indicative of how the US got to the way it is) can so casually accept an executive government, who is not obligated towards the majority of its citizens, and who currently has an ever expanding "right" of 'Targeted Killings' - killing US citizens without consultation with the Judicial branch, or Congress.

Now, if any part of the branch of government had that "right", I would damn well sure that they answer to the majority of the citizens - and not just a handful of people.
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07-10-2012, 11:53 AM
RE: The U.S. Electoral College: A travesty of democracy
(04-10-2012 11:40 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Thomas hit the nail on the head Bowing, sorry cufflink, democracies are a terrible idea,

Please, tell me what kind of government system you would like.

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07-10-2012, 01:18 PM
RE: The U.S. Electoral College: A travesty of democracy
Its not worth marching in the streets over. Its a shit system, but its the one already in place. Its sort of like the English units over SI Metric units. The SI system is infinitely better than the pull a random number out of your ass English system, but we still use it because its already in place and there is not will to change. Its not perfect, but it works most of the time, and that seems to be good enough.
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