The Unification of God
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11-09-2013, 06:08 PM
RE: The Unification of God
(11-09-2013 05:15 PM)JAH Wrote:  Paranoidsam, I was going to post here again but see it is fruitless. Let me give my most humble apologies to you about an excellent question being hijacked by idioteye, and frankly, by others who chose not to ignore him.

Don't worry about it.

I should have known someone would try to hijack the thread, seems to happen too often on here.

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11-09-2013, 06:19 PM
RE: The Unification of God
Idioteye, it is sodomize and trust me I will use no lube.

It is others who should have ignored your useless ramblings.

You derailed a thread which could have been an interesting discussion of the roots of the rise of monotheism by people who have a much greater knowledge of the history of your useless religion than you. I personally would have enjoyed that discussion because there are people on this board who have a much greater knowledge of the historiography of the stupid bible than I do. It would have been interesting to me and I was looking forward to it.

So yes, no lube for you and I suspect you are such an asshole you will enjoy it, until I turn the power on.
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11-09-2013, 07:29 PM (This post was last modified: 11-09-2013 07:36 PM by ridethespiral.)
RE: The Unification of God
tl;dr

Heard it was derailed... so here is my reply to the OP.

I think there are two reasons behind the rise of monotheism as opposed to polytheism, one being the difficulty in assuming to know and attempting to enforce often opposing wills of many different gods, and the other is the big bang theory.

Both poly and mono theism are good sources of lore and morality but polytheism with its roots in tribal culture and the earlier religious variations(longest lived of present day) does a great job of 'explaining' the pre-science world, laying out a few cautionary tales, etc. but it does not do as good a job when it comes to influencing the actions of a populace in a direct manner, there are too many people and gods vying for power, the gods are mischievous, etc. As the Roman Empire expanded it needed a better way to exert control over it's people over great distances, they wanted to be unquestioned in their authority, and that is why polytheism looses favor in the west I think. The same occurred in Egypt when Akhenaten in a bid to shore up his power moved the capitol city and declared himself the earthly form of Akin the one true god.

The other reason I feel that monotheism will win out is that it is superior in terms of plausibility (not that it is all that plausible at all, just more so than polytheism), it's become increasingly hard to hide one god in the gaps none the less a plethora of deities. The big bang leads to a cosmic dead end where a creator might hide but having gods of thunder and fire and hunting what room is there for that in the post renaissance world?

...Of course one might claim that Catholicism is actually polytheism and turn this whole thing on it's head.

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11-09-2013, 07:46 PM
RE: The Unification of God
(11-09-2013 07:29 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  tl;dr

Heard it was derailed... so here is my reply to the OP.

I think there are two reasons behind the rise of monotheism as opposed to polytheism, one being the difficulty in assuming to know and attempting to enforce often opposing wills of many different gods, and the other is the big bang theory.

Both poly and mono theism are good sources of lore and morality but polytheism with its roots in tribal culture and the earlier religious variations(longest lived of present day) does a great job of 'explaining' the pre-science world, laying out a few cautionary tales, etc. but it does not do as good a job when it comes to influencing the actions of a populace in a direct manner, there are too many people and gods vying for power, the gods are mischievous, etc. As the Roman Empire expanded it needed a better way to exert control over it's people over great distances, they wanted to be unquestioned in their authority, and that is why polytheism looses favor in the west I think. The same occurred in Egypt when Akhenaten in a bid to shore up his power moved the capitol city and declared himself the earthly form of Akin the one true god.

The other reason I feel that monotheism will win out is that it is superior in terms of plausibility (not that it is all that plausible at all, just more so than polytheism), it's become increasingly hard to hide one god in the gaps none the less a plethora of deities. The big bang leads to a cosmic dead end where a creator might hide but having gods of thunder and fire and hunting what room is there for that in the post renaissance world?

...Of course one might claim that Catholicism is actually polytheism and turn this whole thing on it's head.

Yay, rerail! I personally find both polytheism and monotheism rather boring. Pantheism is far more interesting. I see little practical or pragmatic difference between "All is God" and "There is no God". The power set vs. the empty set. And panentheism seems even more intriguing. Think Spinoza might've been trying to address that rigorously and formally.

Fuck. Did I just derail this thread again. Weeping

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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11-09-2013, 09:06 PM
RE: The Unification of God
(11-09-2013 07:29 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  tl;dr

Heard it was derailed... so here is my reply to the OP.

I think there are two reasons behind the rise of monotheism as opposed to polytheism, one being the difficulty in assuming to know and attempting to enforce often opposing wills of many different gods, and the other is the big bang theory.

Both poly and mono theism are good sources of lore and morality but polytheism with its roots in tribal culture and the earlier religious variations(longest lived of present day) does a great job of 'explaining' the pre-science world, laying out a few cautionary tales, etc. but it does not do as good a job when it comes to influencing the actions of a populace in a direct manner, there are too many people and gods vying for power, the gods are mischievous, etc. As the Roman Empire expanded it needed a better way to exert control over it's people over great distances, they wanted to be unquestioned in their authority, and that is why polytheism looses favor in the west I think. The same occurred in Egypt when Akhenaten in a bid to shore up his power moved the capitol city and declared himself the earthly form of Akin the one true god.

The other reason I feel that monotheism will win out is that it is superior in terms of plausibility (not that it is all that plausible at all, just more so than polytheism), it's become increasingly hard to hide one god in the gaps none the less a plethora of deities. The big bang leads to a cosmic dead end where a creator might hide but having gods of thunder and fire and hunting what room is there for that in the post renaissance world?

...Of course one might claim that Catholicism is actually polytheism and turn this whole thing on it's head.

In that case then. Is the rise of monotheism attributed to a human tendency to obey a single overarching dictator, rather than a politburo?

When looking at the major dictatorships of recent history, we tend to focus on the leader. It's easy to assume that Hitler had absolute responsibility over all aspects of the Thrid Reich, when it was the Nazi party as a whole. While he may have had absolute power to give orders, he wasn't responsible for every decision himself.

The same goes for any dictatorship. As long as the illusion of the father figure is in place... people tend to fall in line easier.

That coupled with the threat of punishment of course. But then, the Old Testament makes no mention (that I'm aware of) of heaven or hell... just death. It shows what a brutal regime people were under.

It also shows how man-made it is... at no point does God say "if you commit adultery, I will kill you myself"... that would be too easy to disprove. Instead it's "If someone commits adultery, you (humans) must kill them".

The New Testament is fairly sappy by comparison, with it's unconfirmed, vague, empty threat of punishment or reward after death. But it still exploits people's natural weaknesses... we all fear the unknown, and the greatest unknown for most is death. It's a religion which leaves people dangling... people must have been scared shitless on their death beds back then, uncertain of whether they were going to heaven or hell.

That's real evil there...

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11-09-2013, 09:21 PM (This post was last modified: 11-09-2013 09:26 PM by childeye.)
RE: The Unification of God
(11-09-2013 06:08 PM)Paranoidsam Wrote:  
(11-09-2013 05:15 PM)JAH Wrote:  Paranoidsam, I was going to post here again but see it is fruitless. Let me give my most humble apologies to you about an excellent question being hijacked by idioteye, and frankly, by others who chose not to ignore him.

Don't worry about it.

I should have known someone would try to hijack the thread, seems to happen too often on here.
Paranoidsam, I am sorry if you or others feel I have hijacked the thread. I assure you I had no intention of doing so whatever that means (to hijack a thread). In my view I was asked by others to explain things and challenged to prove things I had posted. Sure, my responses to those requests may be construed as going off topic. But they were only honest and forthright responses to questions asked or claims made that were not true. I think the topic is a good one and I hope you all keep discussing it. My views of how monotheism came about are not really much different than anyone elses and I appreciate your thoughtful approach to the subject. I hope you can appreciate that anything I post in forthright response to others is obviously going to be frowned upon by some simply because I am not an atheist and I challenge all the unsubstantiated assertions that I notice (which are many). Some people just take it personally.
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11-09-2013, 09:30 PM
RE: The Unification of God
(11-09-2013 07:29 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  The other reason I feel that monotheism will win out is that it is superior in terms of plausibility (not that it is all that plausible at all, just more so than polytheism), it's become increasingly hard to hide one god in the gaps none the less a plethora of deities. The big bang leads to a cosmic dead end where a creator might hide but having gods of thunder and fire and hunting what room is there for that in the post renaissance world?

I think that in light of the Problem of Evil, polytheism is actually more plausible. Polytheism avoids the logical contradictions of having a single omni-max being responsible for everything. Plus even if you were to present the three Abrahamic religions to an ancient polytheistic pagan, it would look very similar to them. Satan and the cadre of angels and demons would appear to a pagan as simply demigods, and the whole thing would simply be another pantheon to them, just one skewed towards a smaller handful of beings.

The Problem of Evil ceases to be a problem when you have more than one god, and at least one of them is a plausible asshole.

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12-09-2013, 07:14 AM
RE: The Unification of God
(11-09-2013 09:30 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(11-09-2013 07:29 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  The other reason I feel that monotheism will win out is that it is superior in terms of plausibility (not that it is all that plausible at all, just more so than polytheism), it's become increasingly hard to hide one god in the gaps none the less a plethora of deities. The big bang leads to a cosmic dead end where a creator might hide but having gods of thunder and fire and hunting what room is there for that in the post renaissance world?

I think that in light of the Problem of Evil, polytheism is actually more plausible. Polytheism avoids the logical contradictions of having a single omni-max being responsible for everything. Plus even if you were to present the three Abrahamic religions to an ancient polytheistic pagan, it would look very similar to them. Satan and the cadre of angels and demons would appear to a pagan as simply demigods, and the whole thing would simply be another pantheon to them, just one skewed towards a smaller handful of beings.

The Problem of Evil ceases to be a problem when you have more than one god, and at least one of them is a plausible asshole.

And the problem of evil completely disappears under non-theism/non-deism.Drinking Beverage

Theology is an empty field.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-09-2013, 07:33 AM (This post was last modified: 12-09-2013 10:56 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: The Unification of God
(12-09-2013 07:14 AM)Chas Wrote:  And the problem of evil completely disappears under non-theism/non-deism.Drinking Beverage

Theology is an empty field.


Agreed, but I did grow up reading mythology, watching Hercules and Xena on TV, and having enough imagination to play D&D. The gods of Greece, Rome, Babylon, or Egypt are really nothing more than precursors to modern superheros. They are part explanation and wish fulfillment. They fight, compete, love and hate one another. They were the soap operas of their times (among other things), and they are fascinating precisely because they are so obviously human in nature. They are an anthropomorphic projection, often of particular traits or virtues taken to extreme embodiment.


I enjoy mythology, I just don't enjoy it religiously. Smartass

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12-09-2013, 07:51 AM
RE: The Unification of God
(11-09-2013 09:06 PM)Paranoidsam Wrote:  In that case then. Is the rise of monotheism attributed to a human tendency to obey a single overarching dictator, rather than a politburo?

Humans have a tendency to look for leadership, but more of a tribal than a global thing. Monotheism is a political structure manufactured by the elite.

(12-09-2013 07:14 AM)Chas Wrote:  Theology is an empty field.

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