The Universal Basic Income
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23-09-2015, 03:31 PM
RE: The Universal Basic Income
(23-09-2015 01:42 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(23-09-2015 08:37 AM)yakherder Wrote:  ...What you're overlooking is that money is nothing more than a symbolic representation of resource leverage. Right now, humans are one of those resources, and that is why money is worth something even if you don't control the above mentioned resources.....


This is something to think about. Still I don't think humans will ever run out of resources to leverage. Robots are not going to make political resources(i.e. individual votes) go away for instance.

Further, when robots are producing everything from the extraction of raw materials to the finished product, how much is stuff actually going to cost?

We are headed for some exciting times and I suspect that no matter how it all turns out. We will be better off.

Energy is finite at human scales.

If energy consumption per capita continues to increase exponentially - and most of the spitballing ideas in this thread and elsewhere require it to - then that becomes the bottleneck.

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23-09-2015, 03:42 PM
RE: The Universal Basic Income
(23-09-2015 01:23 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  You have to remember - our entire economic system is built upon PERCEPTION rather than anything quantitative --- as it was, when we were on the "gold standard".

With a gold standard - there is a solid correlation between two things - the reserves of precious metals - and the amount of paper dollars printed.

... that's still based on perception. The value assigned to various bits of shiny metals is just as made-up as the value assigned to entirely abstract systems of exchange.

(23-09-2015 01:23 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Once we went off the gold standard - it's all a game of perception -- what people THINK a dollar is worth -- and they tend to make the judgement against certain things that "seem" to have a stable price --- the cost of a loaf of bread, a gallon of milk -- or what a minimum wage earner takes in per hour.

It's a doomed system of course. It WILL eventually implode.

Like commodity money, including the various shades of metallism, has done, repeatedly, throughout history?

Value is a construct. It's not a fact of nature.

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23-09-2015, 04:09 PM
RE: The Universal Basic Income
GIGO hasn't been addressed, nor have software bugs. Nor has hacking. Centralizing production on an automated basis has downsides that I'm uncomfortable with. What happens when a terrorist obtains access to the energy grid? What happens when a company sideslips laws about emissions by planting software not easily detectable?

We are already seeing problems with this vision of the future.

I agree with Woodie that the current state of affairs is bound to change. The issue remains managing the change in such a manner that humans don't suffer. When labor is desperately cheap, as with robotics, how do we ensure that the humans who rely on resource processing aren't shafted by the machine they've built? Can a universal wage be supported in the face of technical and ideological difficulties?

This seems to me to be a mechanism for widening the gap between the haves and have-nots. There's no free lunch.

I'll listen and hope to learn, but I'm skeptical of magic-bullet solutions, as this seems to be.
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23-09-2015, 07:52 PM
RE: The Universal Basic Income
(23-09-2015 01:42 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  This is something to think about. Still I don't think humans will ever run out of resources to leverage. Robots are not going to make political resources(i.e. individual votes) go away for instance.

Political leverage must be built on something more tangible, however. Putting a law in the books does not guarantee that it will be followed. Words on paper are only as meaningful as your ability to persuade/coerce/force someone to follow them. We all hold leverage in the form of our value as part of the labor market, and the threat we have the potential to pose if we get pissed off enough. One of the things we choose to obtain with that leverage is the right to vote. Without said leverage, those who have something to gain from not adhering to our vote have nothing to lose by choosing to do just that.

(23-09-2015 01:42 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Further, when robots are producing everything from the extraction of raw materials to the finished product, how much is stuff actually going to cost?
It wouldn't be for sale. If someone has control of a resource and a present or potential future need for that resource, and you have absolutely nothing they could possibly have a need for to exchange for it, or the threat of force necessary to enforce laws or simply take what you need, then they have nothing to gain from the exchange. The best you can do is hope they are of a generous nature. Though it's certainly nice when people are charitable, the practice of relying on charity is not a reliable survival mechanism.

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23-09-2015, 08:37 PM
RE: The Universal Basic Income
Robots have to be designed and maintained. There is no free lunch.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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23-09-2015, 08:45 PM
RE: The Universal Basic Income
(23-09-2015 08:37 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Robots have to be designed and maintained. There is no free lunch.

Designing new robots perhaps may require the human touch, but what about robots who build robots that maintain and build robots. Once production gets going, what need would there be for humans?
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23-09-2015, 08:47 PM
RE: The Universal Basic Income
(23-09-2015 08:45 PM)BryanS Wrote:  
(23-09-2015 08:37 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Robots have to be designed and maintained. There is no free lunch.

Designing new robots perhaps may require the human touch, but what about robots who build robots that maintain and build robots. Once production gets going, what need would there be for humans?

Who's gonna built the robots that build robots ? There will always be advances and new ideas to deal with.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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23-09-2015, 08:51 PM
RE: The Universal Basic Income
(23-09-2015 08:47 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(23-09-2015 08:45 PM)BryanS Wrote:  Designing new robots perhaps may require the human touch, but what about robots who build robots that maintain and build robots. Once production gets going, what need would there be for humans?

Who's gonna built the robots that build robots ? There will always be advances and new ideas to deal with.

Impossible to know exactly what kind of tech will or won't come our way. I'm speaking based on the hypothetical assumption that the not so distant future portrayed in the video is true.

Whatever happens, worst case scenario is I have to fight for what I need or die trying. That's always been the case regardless of technology Smile

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23-09-2015, 11:53 PM
RE: The Universal Basic Income
(23-09-2015 08:47 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(23-09-2015 08:45 PM)BryanS Wrote:  Designing new robots perhaps may require the human touch, but what about robots who build robots that maintain and build robots. Once production gets going, what need would there be for humans?

Who's gonna built the robots that build robots ? There will always be advances and new ideas to deal with.

How many people will be needed. If it's hierarchical like that, very few.

I think we gotta use robots as tools, lose the idea that there's some kind of divinity in working for your daily bread, control the population, and make the world work for *all* humans - and other animals - on some kinda equitable basis.

I have practically zero hope that this can be achieved. Negotiating with Honey Badgers is impossible.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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24-09-2015, 12:23 AM
RE: The Universal Basic Income
(23-09-2015 11:53 PM)morondog Wrote:  I have practically zero hope that this can be achieved. Negotiating with Honey Badgers is impossible.

[Image: HB_DC_design.jpg]

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