The Universal Basic Income
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24-09-2015, 01:11 AM
RE: The Universal Basic Income
(23-09-2015 03:11 PM)BnW Wrote:  I don't know if we will ultimately better off but I suspect there is going to be a lot of near term pain. A lot of jobs are going to be displaced by automation and people at the bottom of the economic ladder are going to be even worse off. And, they are going to have more and more company. Low wage jobs will be eliminated by automation
White collar jobs will be sent to lower cost economies.

But on the other side, goods and services will cost next to nothing to produce. This means they can be profitably sold for next to nothing. In my experience, the unemployed always have some money. I suspect that your average unemployed person 20 years from now will actually have more buying power than an unemployed person from 20 years ago.
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24-09-2015, 01:21 AM
RE: The Universal Basic Income
(23-09-2015 03:31 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(23-09-2015 01:42 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  This is something to think about. Still I don't think humans will ever run out of resources to leverage. Robots are not going to make political resources(i.e. individual votes) go away for instance.

Further, when robots are producing everything from the extraction of raw materials to the finished product, how much is stuff actually going to cost?

We are headed for some exciting times and I suspect that no matter how it all turns out. We will be better off.

Energy is finite at human scales.

If energy consumption per capita continues to increase exponentially - and most of the spitballing ideas in this thread and elsewhere require it to - then that becomes the bottleneck.

Energy has only gotten cheaper as humans have gotten more technological. I suspect this trend will continue. 100,000 years ago how many man hours did it take to gather the energy to have a night long campfire? How many many hours does it take today to accumulate the same amount energy to produce the same amount of BTUs?

Fusion and batteries with energy densities equivalent to gasoline are coming. Energy is going to get cheaper and cheaper in the foreseeable future I predict.
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24-09-2015, 01:35 AM
RE: The Universal Basic Income
(24-09-2015 01:21 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(23-09-2015 03:31 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Energy is finite at human scales.

If energy consumption per capita continues to increase exponentially - and most of the spitballing ideas in this thread and elsewhere require it to - then that becomes the bottleneck.

Energy has only gotten cheaper as humans have gotten more technological. I suspect this trend will continue. 100,000 years ago how many man hours did it take to gather the energy to have a night long campfire? How many many hours does it take today to accumulate the same amount energy to produce the same amount of BTUs?

Fusion and batteries with energy densities equivalent to gasoline are coming. Energy is going to get cheaper and cheaper in the foreseeable future I predict.

And if consumption outpaces these advances, we're still fucked... Facepalm

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24-09-2015, 01:44 AM
RE: The Universal Basic Income
(23-09-2015 07:52 PM)yakherder Wrote:  It wouldn't be for sale. If someone has control of a resource and a present or potential future need for that resource, and you have absolutely nothing they could possibly have a need for to exchange for it, or the threat of force necessary to enforce laws or simply take what you need, then they have nothing to gain from the exchange. The best you can do is hope they are of a generous nature. Though it's certainly nice when people are charitable, the practice of relying on charity is not a reliable survival mechanism.

What resources in particular are you talking about? Crude Oil is Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, Nitrogen, Sulfer, and some metals. People have already manufactured gasoline from air and water. Plastics can be manufactured from the elements found in air and water. Iron is everywhere...run a magnet through some dirt around your house...you will probably pick up a lot of filings. Aluminum, Silicon, all common too. You can even find gold in seawater.

Automation has made resources more available not less available and that trend will likely continue. Sources that are uneconomical to mine today, become economical to mine as automation improves.
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24-09-2015, 02:33 AM
RE: The Universal Basic Income
(24-09-2015 01:44 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  What resources in particular are you talking about? Crude Oil is Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, Nitrogen, Sulfer, and some metals. People have already manufactured gasoline from air and water.

The problem with making fuels out of base materials like air and water, is that those processes require far more energy put into producing them than you can possibly recoup out of their use... Facepalm

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24-09-2015, 02:54 AM
RE: The Universal Basic Income
I think we should be able to find a good way to use solar energy though. It's free and there's a lot of it.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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24-09-2015, 02:58 AM
RE: The Universal Basic Income
(24-09-2015 02:54 AM)morondog Wrote:  I think we should be able to find a good way to use solar energy though. It's free and there's a lot of it.

But while technology has been making the production and refinement of fossil fuels cheaper, that disincentives research and development of alternatives; provided you are relying entirely upon profit-driven capitalism. Just one of the many reasons why you need nonprofit driven research funding, often backed by governments.

There isn't a Libertarian analog for NASA.

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24-09-2015, 03:02 AM
RE: The Universal Basic Income
Fossil fuels generate massive profits for companies that sell them. Just let's make them bear the cost of clean-up. Think they'll find a way to make energy from alternatives pretty damn quick after that.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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24-09-2015, 03:24 AM (This post was last modified: 24-09-2015 04:03 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: The Universal Basic Income
(24-09-2015 03:02 AM)morondog Wrote:  Fossil fuels generate massive profits for companies that sell them. Just let's make them bear the cost of clean-up. Think they'll find a way to make energy from alternatives pretty damn quick after that.

But that's why they've already bought governments, and now use them as a way to subsidize their losses and privatize their profits. Favorable tax codes that allow them to keep more of what they make, offloading environmental protection and cleanup onto the public, and even undermining competing green technologies that might one day present challenging competition.

Competition is great, and everyone wins when the competition is fair. But there are greater profits to be had in gaming the system in your favor. The end goal is always the subversion of the 'free market' in favor of a market you can control, monopoly is always the end game of unfettered capitalism.

It's a great idea. Enforcing it would first require bringing our government back under the reign of the public, making them once again truly represent the people they supposedly represent; instead of selling out for paychecks from the wealthy.

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24-09-2015, 03:47 AM
RE: The Universal Basic Income
In the short term I understand subverting things so that you become massively rich. In the long term... not at all. If you wreck the world, how will your descendants fare? I think therefore that being obscenely wealthy - I have no problem with wealth per se, just... such unequal wealth that it's obscene - is inherently selfish.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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